Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Swiss politics/news  
View Poll Results: On which initiatives will you vote yes
Popular initiative “For clean drinking water and healthy food" 19 45.24%
Popular initiative “For a Switzerland without artificial pesticides” 18 42.86%
COVID-19 Act 21 50.00%
CO2 Act 16 38.10%
Federal Act on Police Measures to Combat Terrorism 13 30.95%
None of the above 11 26.19%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #221  
Old 20.05.2021, 22:11
Member
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: CH
Posts: 158
Groaned at 4 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 304 Times in 122 Posts
missenglish has a reputation beyond reputemissenglish has a reputation beyond reputemissenglish has a reputation beyond reputemissenglish has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote June 13th 2021

Quote:
View Post
I think the outcome were both initiatives to be approved would be the same though, and that is for the price of food to increase substantially. As much as these two sound nice on paper, I really hope that they get rejected next month.
And yet here are the bio farmers saying prices of bio produce will drop, and everyone else saying we‘d have to import more. Hard to imagine that would be substantially more expensive. Not sure whether there would be a relevant rise. Sounds more like scaremongering to me - not from you: from the usual political suspects.

Even if it wasn‘t, one could play devil‘s advocate and argue that food is too cheap, seeing that we somehow manage to throw away one third of it and that the percentage of disposable income that goes into food has never been lower than in times and places like ours.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank missenglish for this useful post:
  #222  
Old 20.05.2021, 22:13
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 11,810
Groaned at 611 Times in 517 Posts
Thanked 21,741 Times in 11,421 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote June 13th 2021

Quote:
View Post
And yet here are the bio farmers saying prices of bio produce will drop, and everyone else saying we‘d have to import more. Hard to imagine that would be substantially more expensive. Not sure whether there would be a relevant rise. Sounds more like scaremongering to me - not from you: from the usual political suspects.

Even if it wasn‘t, one could play devil‘s advocate and argue that food is too cheap, seeing that we somehow manage to throw away one third of it and that the percentage of disposable income that goes into food has never been lower than in times and places like ours.
Do you have sources for the claims in your last sentence?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #223  
Old 20.05.2021, 22:18
hoover1
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Vote June 13th 2021

Quote:
View Post
And not only from a farmer over the border, basically from everywhere else. Private imports almost don't count. It's the likes of Lidl, Aldi, Coop, Migros etc
Or these companies will search and synthetic promote pestecide-free farming abroad and will guarantee access to the Swiss market for farmers that had no chance to sign contract with large chains like one you mention.

There is no void space and by closing one market - other doors open.

Last edited by hoover1; 20.05.2021 at 22:31.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
This user groans at for this post:
  #224  
Old 20.05.2021, 22:26
hoover1
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Vote June 13th 2021

Quote:
View Post
.. we‘d have to import more.
My understanding pesticides deliver +20% efficiency in crops production ( perhaps someone has source here) so in worst case in 2033 we may see increased need of 20% food

and it would be the same assuming we do not ban pesticides but and Swiss population grows at current rate for next 13-years .. which is mostly due to the immigration
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
This user groans at for this post:
  #225  
Old 20.05.2021, 22:29
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 11,810
Groaned at 611 Times in 517 Posts
Thanked 21,741 Times in 11,421 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote June 13th 2021

Quote:
View Post
Or these companies will search and promote pestecide-free farming abroad and will guarantee access to the Swiss market for farmers that had no chance to sign contract with large chains like one you mention.

There is no void space and by closing one market - other doors open.
The initiatives are not about "pesticide-free farming", they are about synthetic pesticides. You are making exaggerated claims.
So-called "natural" pesticides can be just as harmful but are not a target of these initiatives.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #226  
Old 20.05.2021, 22:31
hoover1
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Vote June 13th 2021

Quote:
View Post
The initiatives are not about "pesticide-free farming", they are about synthetic pesticides. You are making exaggerated claims.
So-called "natural" pesticides can be just as harmful but are not a target of these initiatives.
absolutely - saying pesticides I meant synthetic pesticides each time . corrected to be clear

@S2lemans : keep the Groans coming - seems it's part of you being Swiss
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #227  
Old 20.05.2021, 22:36
Member
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: CH
Posts: 158
Groaned at 4 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 304 Times in 122 Posts
missenglish has a reputation beyond reputemissenglish has a reputation beyond reputemissenglish has a reputation beyond reputemissenglish has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote June 13th 2021

Quote:
View Post
There should be numeric goals that are measurable, spending this money on such studies that tell us installing non-fossil fuel systems will reduce C02 production is hardly breaking new ground or value for money.
The Abstimmungsbüchlein arrived today. Please study it. It‘s not likely to get much more detailed than that. I still wonder if you‘re not asking too much.

How reliable is the sum of 300 millions a year that you cited? I tried to look it up and couldn‘t find more than estimates. Forecasts are difficult, especially about the future... At present, we are spending 8 billions a year on oil and gas. That‘s a thousand per capita, including newborns and centenarians, with no perspective for improvement. It just literally goes up in smoke every year. Even if one chooses to believe that what we do in little Switzerland has no effect on global warming*, our dependency on fossil fuels constitutes a problem. Particularly since we import oil mainly from Nigeria, Libya and Kazakhstan, and gas in large part from Russia. (OK: and from Norway. But gas is harder to trace than oil. Pipelines.)

An American I used to know who‘d been deployed to Iraq said that war was about the oil. I have no idea how accepted that idea is in the States. It wasn‘t the first time I‘d heard it, and it sure makes sense to me. Dependency on fossil fuels from corrupt regimes and countries suffering from the resource curse is something I for one want out of. The sooner the better. If the proposed law did nothing to help that goal, then Big Oil, Mr. Rösti and automobile importers would not have started a referendum.

(*I hear this a lot. It is not an argument that would get one out of paying taxes or insurance premiums, nor one that strikes me as... decent, you know?)

Last edited by missenglish; 20.05.2021 at 23:20.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank missenglish for this useful post:
  #228  
Old 20.05.2021, 22:59
hoover1
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Vote June 13th 2021

Quote:
View Post
Do you have sources for the claims in your last sentence?
I track it back to this post (I have no references myself)

Quote:
View Post
The crazy, crazy thing is that the board of Bio Swiss is against it, arguing that there will be too many bio products on the market therefore the prices will go down! With that attitude they even freak their bio farming members out! The board's reason for bio is obviously not healthy food but making money (and the bio prices are often ridiculous! Plus all that money doesn't go to the farmers where it belongs).

.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #229  
Old 20.05.2021, 23:04
Member
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: CH
Posts: 158
Groaned at 4 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 304 Times in 122 Posts
missenglish has a reputation beyond reputemissenglish has a reputation beyond reputemissenglish has a reputation beyond reputemissenglish has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote June 13th 2021

Quote:
View Post
Do you have sources for the claims in your last sentence?
Thanks for asking. Moderate levels of uncertainty abound, of course. I‘m assuming you wouldn‘t trust dedicated activists‘ sites such as foodwaste.ch, which I find very readable. So here are some drier ones:

Switzerland, in English, bless BAFU: https://www.bafu.admin.ch/bafu/en/ho...labfaelle.html (tons, not percentages)

World: 1/3 to 1/2, yikes! http://www.fao.org/family-farming/detail/en/c/412647/ with a link to a detailed publication that also only seems to give tons, not percentages. Regional distribution patterns (higher in wealthy countries): http://www.fao.org/europe/news/detail-news/en/c/277058/

Costs of food as percentage of total living costs over the last decades: US: https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt...=1621544207513 Looks pretty much the same in developed countries everywhere.

Snapshot of current costs by country: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/...pends-on-food/ Switzerland gets away very cheaply. By Swiss standards of course.

And one less dry one: „As you'd expect, food prices rise the richer a country is. But the amount spent on food as a proportion of all spending drops – a phenomenon known as Engel's Law, after the 19th-century economist.“ https://www.newsweek.com/2015/01/16/...em-297029.html (Not Engels; I‘d never heard of this guy: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engel%27s_law)

Last edited by missenglish; 20.05.2021 at 23:25.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank missenglish for this useful post:
  #230  
Old 20.05.2021, 23:08
curley's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: canton ZH
Posts: 13,131
Groaned at 218 Times in 182 Posts
Thanked 15,264 Times in 7,847 Posts
curley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote June 13th 2021

Quote:
View Post
....
@S2lemans : keep the Groans coming - seems it's part of you being Swiss
I beg your pardon?!
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank curley for this useful post:
  #231  
Old 21.05.2021, 00:29
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 11,810
Groaned at 611 Times in 517 Posts
Thanked 21,741 Times in 11,421 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote June 13th 2021

Quote:
View Post
The Abstimmungsbüchlein arrived today. Please study it. It‘s not likely to get much more detailed than that. I still wonder if you‘re not asking too much.

How reliable is the sum of 300 millions a year that you cited? I tried to look it up and couldn‘t find more than estimates. Forecasts are difficult, especially about the future... At present, we are spending 8 billions a year on oil and gas. That‘s a thousand per capita, including newborns and centenarians, with no perspective for improvement. It just literally goes up in smoke every year. Even if one chooses to believe that what we do in little Switzerland has no effect on global warming*, our dependency on fossil fuels constitutes a problem. Particularly since we import oil mainly from Nigeria, Libya and Kazakhstan, and gas in large part from Russia. (OK: and from Norway. But gas is harder to trace than oil. Pipelines.)

An American I used to know who‘d been deployed to Iraq said that war was about the oil. I have no idea how accepted that idea is in the States. It wasn‘t the first time I‘d heard it, and it sure makes sense to me. Dependency on fossil fuels from corrupt regimes and countries suffering from the resource curse is something I for one want out of. The sooner the better. If the proposed law did nothing to help that goal, then Big Oil, Mr. Rösti and automobile importers would not have started a referendum.

(*I hear this a lot. It is not an argument that would get one out of paying taxes or insurance premiums, nor one that strikes me as... decent, you know?)
Link to annual swiss carbon tax revenue.
Do you think I am asking too much to ask for the planned budget for the CHF 300 million per year?

If the Iraq war was about oil then the US did a lousy job.
Between them, China and India imported around 50% of Iraq's oil exports in 2019 whereas the US takes around 8%.
Name:  iraqexport.jpg
Views: 206
Size:  96.0 KB
Reply With Quote
  #232  
Old 21.05.2021, 06:53
Sean Connery's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Zurich
Posts: 5,565
Groaned at 58 Times in 54 Posts
Thanked 7,554 Times in 3,388 Posts
Sean Connery has a reputation beyond reputeSean Connery has a reputation beyond reputeSean Connery has a reputation beyond reputeSean Connery has a reputation beyond reputeSean Connery has a reputation beyond reputeSean Connery has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote June 13th 2021

Quote:
View Post

If the Iraq war was about oil then the US did a lousy job.
Between them, China and India imported around 50% of Iraq's oil exports in 2019 whereas the US takes around 8%.
Attachment 141891
Stable oil price was in the US interests, whether they import from Iraq or not. There was the Wikipedia reference-linkKuwaiti_oil_fires which might have been one of the reasons to invade when they did as they really did not want oil prices to be out of control.

Everyone knew Saddam was not behind 9/11 but he was a bit of a dick. Nevertheless, his dictatorship did offer a stability to the region and I don't think the western world has the authority to act as world police just because someone's a dick.

I'm 2 degrees of separation from him
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Sean Connery for this useful post:
  #233  
Old 21.05.2021, 07:31
hoover1
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Vote June 13th 2021

Quote:
View Post

If the Iraq war was about oil then the US did a lousy job.
Between them, China and India imported around 50% of Iraq's oil exports in 2019 whereas the US takes around 8%.
Since fracking turned out to be success - US is net exporter of Oil so I'd rather look for data from 2003-2010 .

US and UK both knew there is no WMD .. so must been for other resaons

Last edited by hoover1; 21.05.2021 at 09:04.
Reply With Quote
  #234  
Old 21.05.2021, 07:38
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Nyon
Posts: 6,599
Groaned at 390 Times in 286 Posts
Thanked 9,186 Times in 4,294 Posts
bowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote June 13th 2021

... and what about the Covid-19 and terrorism laws?

(????)
Reply With Quote
  #235  
Old 21.05.2021, 08:10
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 32,516
Groaned at 2,578 Times in 1,840 Posts
Thanked 39,652 Times in 18,690 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote June 13th 2021

Quote:
View Post
Stable oil price was in the US interests, whether they import from Iraq or not. There was the Wikipedia reference-linkKuwaiti_oil_fires which might have been one of the reasons to invade when they did as they really did not want oil prices to be out of control.

Everyone knew Saddam was not behind 9/11 but he was a bit of a dick. Nevertheless, his dictatorship did offer a stability to the region and I don't think the western world has the authority to act as world police just because someone's a dick.

I'm 2 degrees of separation from him
Likewise with Khadafi, he did a great job controlling refugees.

Tom
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
This user groans at st2lemans for this post:
  #236  
Old 21.05.2021, 09:02
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 11,320
Groaned at 401 Times in 327 Posts
Thanked 17,325 Times in 8,770 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote June 13th 2021

Quote:
View Post
Do you have sources for the claims in your last sentence?
Are you serious? Food waste is well documented, just google.

Yeah, it's ironic. We all complain how expensive everything is here but I bet most here throw away lots of stuff not only food.


One thing about food and fair prices: who would agree to go back in time a little and buy things that are more sustainable - seasonal fruits and vegetables as opposed to strawberries in winter, less meat but of higher quality etc etc etc

Nah, we want it all and we want it cheap.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank greenmount for this useful post:
  #237  
Old 21.05.2021, 09:23
hoover1
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Vote June 13th 2021

Quote:
View Post
Stable oil price was in the US interests, whether they import from Iraq or not. There was the Wikipedia reference-linkKuwaiti_oil_fires which might have been one of the reasons to invade when they did as they really did not want oil prices to be out of control.

Everyone knew Saddam was not behind 9/11 but he was a bit of a dick. Nevertheless, his dictatorship did offer a stability to the region and I don't think the western world has the authority to act as world police just because someone's a dick.

I'm 2 degrees of separation from him
The U.S. knew Hussein was launching some of the worst chemical attacks in history -- and still gave him a hand. So there is more to that just who Saddam was. - it was who supported him and at the end betrayed him

I am not judging Saddam - it's largest democracy of the world interest that prevailed over humanitarian aspects and Saddam was just scape goat to close the case
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #238  
Old 21.05.2021, 09:54
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 11,810
Groaned at 611 Times in 517 Posts
Thanked 21,741 Times in 11,421 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote June 13th 2021

Quote:
View Post
Are you serious? Food waste is well documented, just google.

Yeah, it's ironic. We all complain how expensive everything is here but I bet most here throw away lots of stuff not only food.


One thing about food and fair prices: who would agree to go back in time a little and buy things that are more sustainable - seasonal fruits and vegetables as opposed to strawberries in winter, less meat but of higher quality etc etc etc

Nah, we want it all and we want it cheap.
My question was based on the claim that "we" throw away 1/3 of the food whereas the majority of food waste is before it reaches "us". There is an implication that we are rich and lazy in food handling whereas much of the waste is outside of our consumer's hands.
As always the Swiss have researched this.

Also from the same report "A third [of the food waste] consists of inedible components such as bones and banana skins (unavoidable losses)" which makes the claim a bit less dramatic.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #239  
Old 21.05.2021, 09:58
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 32,516
Groaned at 2,578 Times in 1,840 Posts
Thanked 39,652 Times in 18,690 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote June 13th 2021

Quote:
View Post
I bet most here throw away lots of stuff not only food.
No, most stuff get stored rather than thrown away, even broken stuff!

And throw away food? Maybe if it's a few years expired.

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #240  
Old 21.05.2021, 10:12
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 11,810
Groaned at 611 Times in 517 Posts
Thanked 21,741 Times in 11,421 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote June 13th 2021

Quote:
View Post
Stable oil price was in the US interests, whether they import from Iraq or not. There was the Wikipedia reference-linkKuwaiti_oil_fires which might have been one of the reasons to invade when they did as they really did not want oil prices to be out of control.

Everyone knew Saddam was not behind 9/11 but he was a bit of a dick. Nevertheless, his dictatorship did offer a stability to the region and I don't think the western world has the authority to act as world police just because someone's a dick.

I'm 2 degrees of separation from him
Anybody trying to control oil prices is doomed, look at OPEC! The US invaded Iraq in March 2003 when oil price was $45 per barrel and then prices steadily rose until 2008 to a peak of $170.

Agree with your comments about Saddam, also he should have let the UN inspectors in to prove there were no WMDs. He would have lost face but not his life.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank marton for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
3.5 Zimmer Apartment available in Zug (Riedmatt) from 1st June 2021 akk Property offered 2 15.07.2021 14:18
Vote 7th March 2021 Sean Connery Swiss politics/news 457 13.03.2021 22:28
Vote today 5th June marton Swiss politics/news 19 06.06.2016 11:42
Day Trip to Konstanz, Germany on June 13th The Real Stig Travel/day trips/free time 7 22.06.2011 08:29
World wide knit in public day June 13th MusicChick Daily life 2 09.06.2009 12:41


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:38.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0