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View Poll Results: On which initiatives will you vote yes
Popular initiative “For clean drinking water and healthy food" 19 45.24%
Popular initiative “For a Switzerland without artificial pesticides” 18 42.86%
COVID-19 Act 21 50.00%
CO2 Act 16 38.10%
Federal Act on Police Measures to Combat Terrorism 13 30.95%
None of the above 11 26.19%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

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  #241  
Old 21.05.2021, 10:15
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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he should have let the UN inspectors in to prove there were no WMDs.
But there were, and the US knew it as they provided them.

He just hid them very well.

Tom
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  #242  
Old 21.05.2021, 10:20
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Agree with your comments about Saddam, also he should have let the UN inspectors in to prove there were no WMDs. He would have lost face but not his life.
You think? Some countries have a reputation of ignoring UN inspectors when it suits their purpose. One large one in particular.

But back to the topic, what is the collective wisdom of EFers on the Covid 19 and terrorism votes. I’m leaning towards supporting the government on the first, but not the second. Suspicion that someone is a black-hat does not cut it for me. Some proof acceptable by a court should be necessary. Checks and balances and all that.
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  #243  
Old 21.05.2021, 10:22
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

None of the above.

Tom
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  #244  
Old 21.05.2021, 11:00
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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No, most stuff get stored rather than thrown away, even broken stuff!

And throw away food? Maybe if it's a few years expired.

Tom
I don't know if I want to say good for you or not.

I'm a fairly organised hoarder too, but recycle most stuff and keep only things that I think I'm gonna need relatively frequent.
Except for kids art and crafts, have boxes full with "Art" in the Keller. ..

As for altered food, of course I throw everything out. Expired - no, only if they really are.....expired.
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  #245  
Old 21.05.2021, 15:55
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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My question was based on the claim that "we" throw away 1/3 of the food whereas the majority of food waste is before it reaches "us". There is an implication that we are rich and lazy in food handling whereas much of the waste is outside of our consumer's hands.
As always the Swiss have researched this.

Also from the same report "A third [of the food waste] consists of inedible components such as bones and banana skins (unavoidable losses)" which makes the claim a bit less dramatic.
Ah. This is where it gets Wittgensteinian. My „we“ was meant more broadly than your interpretation of it as referring to consumers only. We do throw away a third - as a whole society. No factual disagreements there.

I still find 1/3 (to 1/2, minus 1/3 of 1/2 = 1/3 again) „dramatic“ enough*. Don‘t you? Avoiding it would more than compensate for a loss in harvests of 20% without pesticides.

* Your choice of word, and after you asked for sources. Not gonna look up anything again in a hurry for those only looking for confirmation of their preconceived ideas. Are there any others left? (Relevant question, particularly for climate change.)

Last edited by missenglish; 21.05.2021 at 16:07.
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  #246  
Old 21.05.2021, 16:20
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Anybody trying to control oil prices is doomed, look at OPEC! The US invaded Iraq in March 2003 when oil price was $45 per barrel and then prices steadily rose until 2008 to a peak of $170.
Which is one reason those eight billions a year bug me. Are our predictable lefties the only others? Have you heard of the resource curse? May I warmly recommend Helon Habila‘s thriller Oil on Water if you haven‘t?

I‘m actually quite conservative, financially speaking. But business as usual is simply no longer an option since it will cost us much more in the end. Says (this time) not me and not science, but the CEO of Swiss Re in a recent interview: https://www.zeit.de/2021/21/christia...ndemie-warnung (If you believe Die Zeit publishes only kerfuffle, look past the source to their source. Swiss Re has been taking climate change seriously and adapting for decades. They now say climate change is not insureable because it is no longer a risk but a fact - something that is already happening.)

My source for that interview is a talk Reto Knutti gave today. Dunno how long it‘ll be online but a friend sent the link and it was still working just now. Excellent explanations, clear and sober and accessible to a (German-speaking) general public. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fc6kAXmqv6M (his speech starts at 2:09) There are talks of his in English online, but none this new.
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  #247  
Old 21.05.2021, 17:47
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

Er, anyone care to discuss either the Covid law or the terrorism bit? Complon-topic?
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  #248  
Old 21.05.2021, 18:09
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Also from the same report "A third [of the food waste] consists of inedible components such as bones and banana skins (unavoidable losses)" which makes the claim a bit less dramatic.
Isn't this a question of definition.

Can you call banana skins food?

Lots of stuff being thrown out that has some sort of nutritional value but is generally not marketable.

Artichokes for example. The entire plant is edible. Even the root. And tastes good too. But the market mostly just wants the flower. The rest gets trashed or turned into animal feed.

Radishes for example. People generally want the root. Many people don't know the leaves are equally edible and can be eaten raw in salads or cooked like spinach.

And what about things like pig's brains and turkey livers and tuna intestines?

In some countries it is actually illegal to market or sell them.

Maybe for a good reason.

But it's still food going to waste.

Blaming everything on the consumer or even on the middle man is only half the story.
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  #249  
Old 21.05.2021, 18:22
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Isn't this a question of definition.

Can you call banana skins food?

Lots of stuff being thrown out that has some sort of nutritional value but is generally not marketable.

Artichokes for example. The entire plant is edible. Even the root. And tastes good too. But the market mostly just wants the flower. The rest gets trashed or turned into animal feed.

Radishes for example. People generally want the root. Many people don't know the leaves are equally edible and can be eaten raw in salads or cooked like spinach.

And what about things like pig's brains and turkey livers and tuna intestines?

In some countries it is actually illegal to market or sell them.

Maybe for a good reason.

But it's still food going to waste.

Blaming everything on the consumer or even on the middle man is only half the story.
Wrong , we exhausted this off-topic topic.
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  #250  
Old 21.05.2021, 18:32
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Er, anyone care to discuss either the Covid law or the terrorism bit? Complon-topic?
You asked this three times. If you can’t make up your mind without discussion on the forum, maybe you should not vote at all?
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  #251  
Old 21.05.2021, 18:36
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Er, anyone care to discuss either the Covid law or the terrorism bit? Complon-topic?
No to all, end of.

Tom
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  #252  
Old 21.05.2021, 18:39
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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No to all, end of.

Tom
I was going to reply but suffered from loss of interest.
COVID, I think we're sailing in a crap boat but switching boats will not make it better or worse (that's an analogy in case you miss it )
Terrorism, the 5-0 have plenty of powers, guns and stuff. They will roll out the wicker riot shields if they must!
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  #253  
Old 21.05.2021, 18:59
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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My question was based on the claim that "we" throw away 1/3 of the food whereas the majority of food waste is before it reaches "us". There is an implication that we are rich and lazy in food handling whereas much of the waste is outside of our consumer's hands.
As always the Swiss have researched this.

Also from the same report "A third [of the food waste] consists of inedible components such as bones and banana skins (unavoidable losses)" which makes the claim a bit less dramatic.
Great link, thanks!
i never realized food waste had such a great effect - apart from wasting food is crazy.
Now I'm really proud that over the last year, me throwing food away has reached basically zero (every now and then a bell pepper goes mouldy, I still need to get a feeling for their hop-limit apparently).
The main reason to reach basically zero is definitely becoming more experimental at cooking and sticking less to "planned" menus. Which is so much more fun too.
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  #254  
Old 21.05.2021, 19:07
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

..vote time ...
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  #255  
Old 21.05.2021, 21:25
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Er, anyone care to discuss either the Covid law or the terrorism bit? Complon-topic?
Covid is a no-brainer yes IMHO. Terrorism law: undecided so far. The more political parts of the neighbourhood bubble insist it would pave the way for totalitarianism. Somehow, I can‘t see that happening any time soon here.
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  #256  
Old 21.05.2021, 21:31
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Great link, thanks!
i never realized food waste had such a great effect - apart from wasting food is crazy.
Now I'm really proud that over the last year, me throwing food away has reached basically zero (every now and then a bell pepper goes mouldy, I still need to get a feeling for their hop-limit apparently).
The main reason to reach basically zero is definitely becoming more experimental at cooking and sticking less to "planned" menus. Which is so much more fun too.
That was the identical BAFU link I posted in reply to marton‘s skeptical question (229). Congrats anyway on reducing your food waste.
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  #257  
Old 22.05.2021, 00:03
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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[...]
- One would ban usage of pesticides 10-years after it't implemented with gradual step-by-step phasing it out ( 12 years from now )

both leave a room for gov to continue synthetic pesticides should there be no other solution and absolute need for it.
Nope, the ban on pesticides becomes absolute with the implementation of the final measures, in ten years at the latest if it gets a double-Yes (won't happen IMHO, at the least the Cantons will say No).
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Presumably, this will also apply to private imports so if I buy a box of cherries from a farmer over the border then I will have to prove to the border guard that no synthetics were involved?

BTW, the definition of food is wide and includes animals, poultry and fish, not just fruit and vegetables.

The initiatives really go too wide.
Only commercial imports would be affected. Plus of course what's produced domestically.
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  #258  
Old 22.05.2021, 08:36
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Covid is a no-brainer yes IMHO. Terrorism law: undecided so far. The more political parts of the neighbourhood bubble insist it would pave the way for totalitarianism. Somehow, I can‘t see that happening any time soon here.
Not if you don't pave the way! Please remember voting here is not advisory!

Using the word totalitarianism is imo as wrong as using the word terrorism by the pro side. They are both just catchwords.

The police (generally and Fedpol) might need more staff - they're welcome to start a petition - but not more autonomy of decision. This law circumvents basic constitutional and data protective principles of this country.

Anybody can be declared a suspect and precautionally be punished (regular duty to report, domiciliary arrest, ban on leaving the country/dispossession of passport). From the age of 12 Parents rights can be bypassed (Art. 23k/3).
It's legalizing arbitrariness. And don't think it won't concern you. They will shoot first and ask later with this new law. You got nothing to hide? (the standard sentence of people supporting such measures.) Well, while they find out that's true you'll be locked in your home, told to report and your complete private data will be trawled through (read Art. 23h/2), if it hits your kid it will be scared shitless and you possibly will not be able to defend it.

So, study well before you vote!

The fact that Bundesrat and parliament supports this makes me wonder .....

@missenglish, I react to posts, not people. The you is not aimed at you.
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  #259  
Old 22.05.2021, 08:56
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Great link, thanks!
i never realized food waste had such a great effect - apart from wasting food is crazy.
Now I'm really proud that over the last year, me throwing food away has reached basically zero (every now and then a bell pepper goes mouldy, I still need to get a feeling for their hop-limit apparently).
The main reason to reach basically zero is definitely becoming more experimental at cooking and sticking less to "planned" menus. Which is so much more fun too.
Been experimenting a lot with ‚leftovers‘. Most of the time veggies that need to be eaten end up on an oventray. Some salt, herbs, oil, cheese, whatever you like and after a while roasting in the oven, out comes a nice meal
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Old 22.05.2021, 09:15
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Great link, thanks!
i never realized food waste had such a great effect - apart from wasting food is crazy.
Now I'm really proud that over the last year, me throwing food away has reached basically zero (every now and then a bell pepper goes mouldy, I still need to get a feeling for their hop-limit apparently).
The main reason to reach basically zero is definitely becoming more experimental at cooking and sticking less to "planned" menus. Which is so much more fun too.
If you whip up a quick quark or sourcream dip or have a can of chickpeas ready for houmous as a dip, or a tuna can for a quick dip too (a bit of sourcream, ketchup, mustard, spring onion, black pepper) - I eat a lot of veggies raw, including peppers, coliflower, broccoli, zuchini, carrots, cucumbers, radishes, avocado or celery sticks. I made a dip from pureed cooked lentils, too with roasted Indian spices and curry paste..It is nice and crisp, lower on cals then bechamel/cheese veg gratins, if you don't eat more dip than veg. Gratins are yummy too, though.
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