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View Poll Results: On which initiatives will you vote yes
Popular initiative “For clean drinking water and healthy food" 19 45.24%
Popular initiative “For a Switzerland without artificial pesticides” 18 42.86%
COVID-19 Act 21 50.00%
CO2 Act 16 38.10%
Federal Act on Police Measures to Combat Terrorism 13 30.95%
None of the above 11 26.19%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

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  #301  
Old 23.05.2021, 12:38
hoover1
 
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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I find the whole Swiss approach to the carbon tax to be comical.

They give over two-thirds back to us, how does that help anything?

They are very reluctant to go into details of how they will spend the remainder, I had expected the supporting blurb to have a long list of achievements - maybe they just build plush offices.

If I was in charge I would be more imaginative. I would stop the return to us and use the whole amount for visible things. You could, for example, probably equip 30,000 households annually with free solar panels - just have an annual lottery to select the lucky ones.
Solar would not reduce CO2 in CH , see CO2 sources:


When you look at https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/climate...gets-/45876054 you'd see where the source of CO2 is.


Also only reduction is within housing - while largely transport and industry remain responsible for 2/3 .

Today program is not aiming to give "for free" - that is utopian idea I think . It's aiming to consider green at re-inwestment cycle providing incentives and doesn't address housing market only but also industrial .

By looking at current CO2 emission - we cover two but not 3rd one - we clearly lacking program on transportation ... which is part of CO2 vote now
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  #302  
Old 23.05.2021, 12:42
hoover1
 
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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What I would like to see is a requirement for all new buildings to be self-sufficient in energy plus 20%. And a subsidy program to do the same for existing buildings. Too many boring roofs here.
Actually it's worst than that - up until recently most communities had right to regulate type and even colour of the roof .

and new buildings - that is exactly what the CO2 tax does - it's promoting MinEnergie/E buildings by subsidising additional costs when compared to standard building quality .

However these buildings lose a lot of the "beauty" in a way as energy efficiency comes at clear architectural loses due to nature of energy expediter and conduction/radiation.
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  #303  
Old 23.05.2021, 13:08
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Solar would not reduce CO2 in CH , see CO2 sources:

When you look at https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/climate...gets-/45876054 you'd see where the source of CO2 is.

Also only reduction is within housing - while largely transport and industry remain responsible for 2/3 .

Today program is not aiming to give "for free" - that is utopian idea I think . It's aiming to consider green at re-inwestment cycle providing incentives and doesn't address housing market only but also industrial .

By looking at current CO2 emission - we cover two but not 3rd one - we clearly lacking program on transportation ... which is part of CO2 vote now
Well if you believe the solution to transport CO2 reduction is electrical vehicles then we have to somehow reduce the load on existing electricity generation and distribution to make room for the new demand. What better way to do this than via domestic solar panels?
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  #304  
Old 23.05.2021, 13:33
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Can you confirm these would clean toxins that are noted in the article - Chlorothalonil ?
Reverse osmosis filters are said to remove 99 percent of the toxic chemicals in water, including some pesticides

Reverse osmosis was capable of removing all chlorothalonil TPs by ≥98%.
Reverse osmosis removes all transformation products almost completely.
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  #305  
Old 23.05.2021, 13:35
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Well if you believe the solution to transport CO2 reduction is electrical vehicles then we have to somehow reduce the load on existing electricity generation and distribution to make room for the new demand. What better way to do this than via domestic solar panels?
Not just domestic, but everywhere possible. A farmer field growing sugar beets and sunflowers, which is heavily subsided, could get off subsidies by converting his/her field to solar. Might be ugly but sugar beets aren't exactly pretty.
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  #306  
Old 23.05.2021, 13:48
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Let me explain that on my example

Last year I was up to renewal of my Oil heating system - and after all it would have been about 30K CHF

Now, also every year I'd consume about 3000L oil.

Oil price already rose 6% from CO2 tax few years back and is set to raise again since CH didn't meet it's Paris target CO2 reduction (even so CO2 reduction happen entirely only in house emission anyway !)

That likely will increase price by another 10% and it will continue. So where would that oil-added-CO2-tax go ?

CO2 tax sponsors "green" initiatives which gave me back 6k CHF.

After all the calculation 43k heat-pump breaks even after 4years .

Without incentives (assuming stable oil price of 75CHF/100L) it would break even at around 18-years .

I took Heat-pump - as not only clean but more economical solution - I also will get back one room in the cellar of appox 30'000L of volume back for use when removing 20'000L tank.

Calculation includes switching from Elektro - water- heater to heat-pump

Hope it helps.
I hope it works out well for you.

I live in a 25 apartment block. We used to have a heat pump but it needed major repairs every seven to eight years, the compressor was the weakest point.

Last time we decided not to and replaced it with oil heating, now our annual heating costs are lower.
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  #307  
Old 23.05.2021, 14:07
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Well if you believe the solution to transport CO2 reduction is electrical vehicles then we have to somehow reduce the load on existing electricity generation and distribution to make room for the new demand. What better way to do this than via domestic solar panels?
Nuclear.

Tom
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  #308  
Old 23.05.2021, 14:27
hoover1
 
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Nuclear.

Tom
That part I know a bit .. and yes as far as power generation goes and no as far as post-product conservation & storage goes.

from CO2 perspective - yes .
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  #309  
Old 23.05.2021, 14:37
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Well if you believe the solution to transport CO2 reduction is electrical vehicles then we have to somehow reduce the load on existing electricity generation and distribution to make room for the new demand. What better way to do this than via domestic solar panels?
That under assumption that EVs are subsidised in first place to phase out ICEs and that is not currently in place. It would be most likley should CO2 bill pass.

And for solar - you are absolutly right it would be great idea. PVs also help to reduce overall elektro-grid load (until done in super large farms - aka. see germany issues).

Issue with PV today - that first you recive some incentives , than there is some guaranteed price premium KEV will pay so sounds good however

- each time you send power to the grid - you need to include it onto + side of the taxes (income).
- each time you consume energy - you pay MwST on it.

Once hype is over and pure mathematics is done - there is only negative RIO. That indeed changes when you can charge your EV from Solar - that assumes your EV is @ PV location when there is most irradiation happening and that mostly isn't the case ( COVID-times are exception )

So PVs would need EVs first to be + RIO .. or change of the KEV operation principles.

Some countries use network grid as "storage" and it be only "delta" in 12-months cycle that you have to pay MwST on. While grid-provider would charge PV producer it's 30% power delivered as a cost - it stills leaves 70% to ones disposal free of charge . That is not Swiss model.

Needless to say KEV takes more than a year to get your PV recognised and subside , you'd need two separate energy counters ( had no idea Maxwel law works only left-to-right and you possibly should mount energy meter upside down to see when it goes right-to-left - but hey - that is Switzerland - and everyone gets switzerlized )

Now, there is some Chinese companies building interesting battery storage systems for home use - however seeing China CO2 footprint I am not to acquire and support even greater polution
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  #310  
Old 23.05.2021, 23:02
hoover1
 
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

it's good information there.
One thing that stands out is fact that membrane used is 10'000m3/day capable and experiment pushed 14l/min -> 20m3/day or 0.002 of the membrane intended throughput - sounds it be thing to consider when trying to understand results.


Since i know and used RO on boat for years - it's nothing new to me and interesting analyses you provided.
Boat equipment is at 12k$ - while as far I can see land-installation would set me back ±5'000 CHF, than membrane 900 CHF/year.

Remarks in the paper that it's not scalable solution to the problem ( 2 milion household installation to install system like this one in CH) - it may be solution for myself - however reverse osmosis has also disadvantages of removing healthy elements from water that makes it actually somewhat unhealthy at the end of the day.

experiment seem to be done with 0.0001 micron membrane . while domestic appliances (CTAs) are 0.0005 micron mostly

I think this also show importance of votes like this one - Chlorothalonil - was approved and "safe" in '70s .. and not until 2020 we discovered it's carcinogenic - when now it's so much wide spread we have issues with dealing with it at the great cost of money and health.

I get it's a forum of expats and not many of EF members actually can vote - I am not trying to convince you but just voicing my opinion for all of you to reconsider each time you look at "status quo" of what that actually may mean for your loved ones in not so distant future

Last edited by hoover1; 23.05.2021 at 23:29. Reason: typos
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  #311  
Old 24.05.2021, 09:38
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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it's good information there.
One thing that stands out is fact that membrane used is 10'000m3/day capable and experiment pushed 14l/min -> 20m3/day or 0.002 of the membrane intended throughput - sounds it be thing to consider when trying to understand results.


Since i know and used RO on boat for years - it's nothing new to me and interesting analyses you provided.
Boat equipment is at 12k$ - while as far I can see land-installation would set me back ±5'000 CHF, than membrane 900 CHF/year.

Remarks in the paper that it's not scalable solution to the problem ( 2 milion household installation to install system like this one in CH) - it may be solution for myself - however reverse osmosis has also disadvantages of removing healthy elements from water that makes it actually somewhat unhealthy at the end of the day.

experiment seem to be done with 0.0001 micron membrane . while domestic appliances (CTAs) are 0.0005 micron mostly

I think this also show importance of votes like this one - Chlorothalonil - was approved and "safe" in '70s .. and not until 2020 we discovered it's carcinogenic - when now it's so much wide spread we have issues with dealing with it at the great cost of money and health.

I get it's a forum of expats and not many of EF members actually can vote - I am not trying to convince you but just voicing my opinion for all of you to reconsider each time you look at "status quo" of what that actually may mean for your loved ones in not so distant future
So far as I can find Chlorothalonil particles when dissolved in water are larger than 0.003mm.
Domestic reverse osmosis systems from amazon.de start at 40 euros.
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  #312  
Old 24.05.2021, 09:58
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Clearly they need to lower fuel taxes for us normal folks.

Tom
In a country with an excellent public transportation system?
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  #313  
Old 24.05.2021, 10:15
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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So far as I can find Chlorothalonil particles when dissolved in water are larger than 0.003mm.
Domestic reverse osmosis systems from amazon.de start at 40 euros.
I always find it fascinating that Amazon has such great prices and each time I ask for an offer - it comes at 100x higher than what amazon is offering.

back to the case - you believe now we should ignore (pesticides) and let them be used (so we get +20% corps efficiency and lower biodiveroity) and than we should all use osmosis at home and again once completed - on pure side H20 we add back micro-elements just for famers to further continue ?

what about animals on farms ? wildlife like birds or other ?

No, I do not believe it's solution to problem we create our own - but I may be wrong ..
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Old 24.05.2021, 10:40
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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In a country with an excellent public transportation system?
Public transportation is not excellent around here, in fact it's pretty useless!

30 minutes in a car or motorcycle, vs 2 hours via public transport, for example.

Hell, my daughter can't even get to work on time via public transport, as it starts too late!

Tom
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Old 24.05.2021, 10:52
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Once hype is over and pure mathematics is done - there is only negative RIO. That indeed changes when you can charge your EV from Solar - that assumes your EV is @ PV location when there is most irradiation happening and that mostly isn't the case ( COVID-times are exception )
A lot of people live in appartments and so have very little means to install their own PVs.

If they need to use EVs, they will be 100% dependent on the grid.
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  #316  
Old 24.05.2021, 11:19
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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A lot of people live in appartments and so have very little means to install their own PVs.

If they need to use EVs, they will be 100% dependent on the grid.
real-estate investors look to return profit on whatever they do and to have them install PVs it's either by 'force' ( vote->law) or by incentives ( here from break-even costs to full support).

EVs could help themselves - by allowing charge/discharge to home installation and become not 'just a car' to 'home battery system' .

I have 5 new min-energy houses near by - neither has PV .
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  #317  
Old 24.05.2021, 12:05
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I hope it works out well for you.

I live in a 25 apartment block. We used to have a heat pump but it needed major repairs every seven to eight years, the compressor was the weakest point.

Last time we decided not to and replaced it with oil heating, now our annual heating costs are lower.
...and the one in my house is now 22 years old, still running happily, has needed no significant repairs and has cost maybe 25% of a similar oil installation.

Honestly, you must have had a poor installation before and certainly have now made an exceptionally bad decision in the replacement. Happily it looks like new oil heating burners will be banned in a few years.
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  #318  
Old 24.05.2021, 12:20
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Public transportation is not excellent around here, in fact it's pretty useless!

30 minutes in a car or motorcycle, vs 2 hours via public transport, for example.

Hell, my daughter can't even get to work on time via public transport, as it starts too late!

Tom
Then maybe local politicians should come up with some plans to solve these issues.. I guess they're more than happy when people buy homes in the sticks releasing some of the locative pressure on big cities. They should also be aware of the fact that people will need to commute if jobs aren't around. Adding more pollution is not necessarily the way to go. Or pushing everyone to just...."manage" - afford a car, fuel, insurance etc just to be able to get on time to work. Or school.
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  #319  
Old 24.05.2021, 16:28
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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real-estate investors look to return profit on whatever they do and to have them install PVs it's either by 'force' ( vote->law) or by incentives ( here from break-even costs to full support).

EVs could help themselves - by allowing charge/discharge to home installation and become not 'just a car' to 'home battery system' .

I have 5 new min-energy houses near by - neither has PV .
If I wanted a home battery system I'd install one in the basement or in the shed at the end of my garden. Driving around in my strategic energy reserve doesn't really make sense to me. For a start if they were at home, I could use heavier batteries and they would be permanently connected so I could charge or discharge them at any time and so make full use of market dynamics.

Many people in cities cannot even park on their own land but park in communal garages or on the street. So that puts a public grid between me and my strategic energy reserve and limits the degree to which I can benefit from playing at timing the market.
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Old 24.05.2021, 16:35
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Then maybe local politicians should come up with some plans to solve these issues.. I guess they're more than happy when people buy homes in the sticks releasing some of the locative pressure on big cities. They should also be aware of the fact that people will need to commute if jobs aren't around. Adding more pollution is not necessarily the way to go. Or pushing everyone to just...."manage" - afford a car, fuel, insurance etc just to be able to get on time to work. Or school.
All these problems could easily be solved if there was a will.

But politicians, especially on a local level, just don't see the priority.

That said, Switzerland is pretty much paradise compared to much of the rest of Europe or the world even. Try getting around rural Spain or France even by public transport and you'll appreciate even the most dismal bus service that Switzerland has to offer. There are villages out there that get one bus a day, if even that.
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