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View Poll Results: On which initiatives will you vote yes
Popular initiative “For clean drinking water and healthy food" 19 45.24%
Popular initiative “For a Switzerland without artificial pesticides” 18 42.86%
COVID-19 Act 21 50.00%
CO2 Act 16 38.10%
Federal Act on Police Measures to Combat Terrorism 13 30.95%
None of the above 11 26.19%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

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  #341  
Old 02.06.2021, 20:15
hoover1
 
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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What I’d like to know is where all these poor, poor farmers, who require subsidies to earn a living wage are getting all the money for their No Campaign.

Full page adds in the local press, every field with a 2xNo sign, a fortune is being spent. By the oh-so-poor farmers.
from not paying CO2 tax , no any tax for the matter of fact on fuel and some extra every now and then when you buy milk , butter ...actually everything .

SVP is party of farmers at the end of the day
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  #342  
Old 02.06.2021, 21:28
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

I would gladly pay subsidies to farmers than CO2 taxes to the anti-nuke morons.

Tom
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  #343  
Old 08.06.2021, 19:07
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

Lately I feel the approaches are good but there's just always little things that put me off. I also feel that Nay- and Yay-Sayers become more and more intransparent and basically flat out lie in official voting documents that should help us decide. There's so much misinformation from both sides.

I've unfortunately thrown away the material already but e.g. on CO2 why are there not more data points available. And how come there's even a focus on airfares where as the greenhouse emissions look like this?
  • 32 % are caused by transport (excluding air transport);
  • 24 % by buildings;
  • 19 % by agriculture, waste management and emissions of synthetic gases.

Also globally yet aviation overall accounts for only 2.5% of global carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions, and less than 4% of global warming (albeit I agree that this is only increasing).
Coal on the other hand is responsible for nearly 50% of the CO2 emissions and Germany happily continues another decade with a lot of other Eastern European countries who don't even think about turning off their plants yet. While the biggest offenders are China and the US we definitely have our fair share in Europe as well.
Can we just further tax all the coal energy and raise the prices there a bit?
Maybe actually negotiate something with the EU there to support them in getting rid of coal?

I hate that the Nay-sayers have to lie and say petrol is getting CHF 0.12 more expensive.
Correct: the existing CHF 0.07 will be raised by further CHF 0.05 to a total of 12 Rappen.
One party says it will be 100.- more expensive for a family of four after the new CO2 act, the others say 1000.-
In reality probably both is untrue.

It's just so much sensationalism on both ends and I find it crazy that all these things actually make it into the official material. Where does one go these days for neutral material that tells me what exactly changes in a couple bullet points?

Overall the CO2 act just really doesn't make any sense and creates overhead on everyone (airlines, government, population) with then being intransparent of where the money actually goes.

I think we definitely don't need to cripple travel outside Switzerland right now and feel flight charges are left much better in the hands of the airlines and putting pressure on them and the industry instead - globally. Yes, it was the worst year for the travel industry for sure however it will also come back stronger than ever.

Also why not just give tax breaks for anyone that puts up gov-approved solar panels, or changes from oil to something more ecological?
It is completely true that by raising the oil prices you probably want to make people switch from oil heating but the main demographic who does have that type (60+) does definitely not have the money to just change without giving them incentives. "Taxing" them more is not going to help.
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  #344  
Old 08.06.2021, 19:58
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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but the main demographic who does have that type (60+) does definitely not have the money to just change without giving them incentives. "Taxing" them more is not going to help.
Do you have any evidence that would support that statement ?
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  #345  
Old 08.06.2021, 20:14
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Do you have any evidence that would support that statement ?
Apologies, I wanted to edit a few things but realized that's not possible. It's an educated guess and I think it's also less about age than I've tried to make it. Looking at my circle of friends and their parents that is the case.
The answer on why not change is always money and if we raise oil praises instead of giving incentives then this doesn't really change after people are retiring.
It's practically trying to force people to switch away from oil without really providing them guidance, no?
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  #346  
Old 08.06.2021, 20:23
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Apologies, I wanted to edit a few things but realized that's not possible. It's an educated guess and I think it's also less about age than I've tried to make it. Looking at my circle of friends and their parents that is the case.
The answer on why not change is always money and if we raise oil praises instead of giving incentives then this doesn't really change after people are retiring.
It's practically trying to force people to switch away from oil without really providing them guidance, no?
that's okay. Let me share with you different view ..

- Everyone that has purchased real-estate 20-years ago (which would be typical to purchase detached house at around 40 let's say - so they could be today 60 - would have to have money to pay for it.

- First - every 20-years heating system is up for refresh as that is the lifespan of most of the components (pumps, burner, all other). So they need to do it anyway.

- Secondary : Switzerland's housing market saw strong house price increases from 2000 to 2016: Owner-occupied dwelling prices rose by 80.5% (70.2% in real terms) ..

So they all seat at pile of money being their real-estate - now they can just go to bank and ask for mortgage that they don't even need to pay (65% is what you don't have to pay back) and pay for the renovation .

I do know the cost of oel heating and heat-pump renovation pretty accuratly as I done it this year - after 20-years of Oil heating - and incentives (CO2 tax someone paid including myself) pays the difference so it was lower TCO than Oel heating to go to heat pump .

CO2 tax is to change behaviours of people and businesses

This same should happen in Transport where there is no incentives (carrots) and no law (stick) to make that change.
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  #347  
Old 08.06.2021, 20:44
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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that's okay. Let me share with you different view ..

- Everyone that has purchased real-estate 20-years ago (which would be typical to purchase detached house at around 40 let's say - so they could be today 60 - would have to have money to pay for it.

- First - every 20-years heating system is up for refresh as that is the lifespan of most of the components (pumps, burner, all other). So they need to do it anyway.

- Secondary : Switzerland's housing market saw strong house price increases from 2000 to 2016: Owner-occupied dwelling prices rose by 80.5% (70.2% in real terms) ..

So they all seat at pile of money being their real-estate - now they can just go to bank and ask for mortgage that they don't even need to pay (65% is what you don't have to pay back) and pay for the renovation .

I do know the cost of oel heating and heat-pump renovation pretty accuratly as I done it this year - after 20-years of Oil heating - and incentives (CO2 tax someone paid including myself) pays the difference so it was lower TCO than Oel heating to go to heat pump .

CO2 tax is to change behaviours of people and businesses

This same should happen in Transport where there is no incentives (carrots) and no law (stick) to make that change.
Many thanks for this, really appreciate it! So one actually already receives benefits when switching from oil to something more ecological with the current CO2 act?
If so I wonder why we don't take the opportunity of a national vote by putting in a flyer that shows the HowTo with a comparison over the next 10-15 years - there's a lot of us that just don't know that you can implement a heat pump at less than 35% of the cost and also don't know how it will then be cost-wise post-implementation so it be a great opportunity to create awareness.
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  #348  
Old 08.06.2021, 20:50
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Many thanks for this, really appreciate it! So one actually already receives benefits when switching from oil to something more ecological with the current CO2 act?
Yes, there is benefits - it's canton dependant

CO2 act would be a "stick" as "carrot" is already out there . More money comes from CO2 unfriendly , more it goes to CO2 friendly and it creates equilibrium with direction to CO2 neutral .

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M there's a lot of us that just don't know that you can implement a heat pump at less than 35% of the cost and also don't know how it will then be cost-wise post-implementation so it be a great opportunity to create awareness.
I am not aware of 35% of the cost - it is the same cost as Oil heating in most cases (when you account for incentive & tax break )
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  #349  
Old 08.06.2021, 21:10
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

10x NO, end of!

Tom
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  #350  
Old 13.06.2021, 10:54
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

So the vote is on:


1- Popular initiative “For clean drinking water and healthy food"
2- Popular initiative “For a Switzerland without artificial pesticides”
3- COVID-19 Act
4- CO2 Act
5- Federal Act on Police Measures to Combat Terrorism
https://www.admin.ch/gov/en/start/do...lthy-food.html


1, 2 and 4 at least would have durable economic consequences, and 3 and 5 have their social consequences. What is the guess?
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  #351  
Old 13.06.2021, 11:13
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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So the vote is on:


1- Popular initiative “For clean drinking water and healthy food"
2- Popular initiative “For a Switzerland without artificial pesticides”
3- COVID-19 Act
4- CO2 Act
5- Federal Act on Police Measures to Combat Terrorism
https://www.admin.ch/gov/en/start/do...lthy-food.html


1, 2 and 4 at least would have durable economic consequences, and 3 and 5 have their social consequences. What is the guess?
My prediction

1. No
2. No
3. Yes
4. No
5. Yes

Although I think the CO2 one might be close.
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  #352  
Old 13.06.2021, 11:15
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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So the vote is on:


1- Popular initiative “For clean drinking water and healthy food"
2- Popular initiative “For a Switzerland without artificial pesticides”
3- COVID-19 Act
4- CO2 Act
5- Federal Act on Police Measures to Combat Terrorism
https://www.admin.ch/gov/en/start/do...lthy-food.html


1, 2 and 4 at least would have durable economic consequences, and 3 and 5 have their social consequences. What is the guess?

1- Popular initiative “For clean drinking water and healthy food"
YES

2- Popular initiative “For a Switzerland without artificial pesticides”
YES

3- COVID-19 Act
YES

4- CO2 Act
YES

5- Federal Act on Police Measures to Combat Terrorism
NON
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  #353  
Old 13.06.2021, 11:49
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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1- Popular initiative “For clean drinking water and healthy food"
YES

2- Popular initiative “For a Switzerland without artificial pesticides”
YES

3- COVID-19 Act
YES

4- CO2 Act
YES

5- Federal Act on Police Measures to Combat Terrorism
NON
Yes
Yes
No (more as a signal/protest that I don't believe any restrictions should be in place from September than on the actual substance of the bill given we should all be double vaccinated by then)
No
No

I reckon I'd lose all 5.
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  #354  
Old 13.06.2021, 14:28
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

Let’s wait until the urban centres announce their vote.
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  #355  
Old 13.06.2021, 15:04
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

Wow, if even GE is only 61% in favour of the CO2 law, I don't see this pass.
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  #356  
Old 13.06.2021, 16:14
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Wow, if even GE is only 61% in favour of the CO2 law, I don't see this pass.
Thank god!

Alas, the stupid COVID and anti-terrorism BS did pass.

Tom
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  #357  
Old 13.06.2021, 16:41
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Thank god!

Alas, the stupid COVID and anti-terrorism BS did pass.

Tom
My opinion exactly. BTW why is no cantonal majority reuired for 4 of the 6 referenda? I checked and only "required" referenda need a cantonal majority. Why is that?

It didn't matter today but I think it's a bad thing that a majority of cantons voting against something can be overruled by population centers. We don't want a breeding competition for votes do we? Switzerland is supposed to be a federation (sadly no longer confederation since the civil war).
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  #358  
Old 13.06.2021, 16:42
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Thank god!

Alas, the stupid COVID and anti-terrorism BS did pass.

Tom
God does not have too much to do with it. Seems like the 2 agri initiatives mobilized a lot of rural and conservative votes, and this might have changed the CO2 trajectory as well.
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  #359  
Old 13.06.2021, 16:48
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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God does not have too much to do with it. Seems like the 2 agri initiatives mobilized a lot of rural and conservative votes, and this might have changed the CO2 trajectory as well.
I still would like to know where all these poor, poor farmers got their money for this campaign from.

I didn't see one 'vote yes' poster in the Nyon area.
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  #360  
Old 13.06.2021, 16:50
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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God does not have too much to do with it. Seems like the 2 agri initiatives mobilized a lot of rural and conservative votes, and this might have changed the CO2 trajectory as well.
A simpler explanation is that the voters got what a rip-off the CO2 law was and decided to crash it. The modern indulgence business was exposed and sent where it belongs.
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