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View Poll Results: On which initiatives will you vote yes
Popular initiative “For clean drinking water and healthy food" 19 45.24%
Popular initiative “For a Switzerland without artificial pesticides” 18 42.86%
COVID-19 Act 21 50.00%
CO2 Act 16 38.10%
Federal Act on Police Measures to Combat Terrorism 13 30.95%
None of the above 11 26.19%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

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  #361  
Old 13.06.2021, 16:52
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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My opinion exactly. BTW why is no cantonal majority reuired for 4 of the 6 referenda? I checked and only "required" referenda need a cantonal majority. Why is that?

It didn't matter today but I think it's a bad thing that a majority of cantons voting against something can be overruled by population centers. We don't want a breeding competition for votes do we? Switzerland is supposed to be a federation (sadly no longer confederation since the civil war).
Cantonal majority is only required for an initiative not a referendum.
The pesticide and drinking water votes were initiatives whereas the other three were referenda.

I’m not sure where you get the sixth one from as there were only 5 federal votes.
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  #362  
Old 13.06.2021, 16:54
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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A simpler explanation is that the voters got what a rip-off the CO2 law was and decided to crash it. The modern indulgence business was exposed and sent where it belongs.
Crash is a strong word for something that looks like 47-53.
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  #363  
Old 13.06.2021, 17:04
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Cantonal majority is only required for an initiative not a referendum.
The pesticide and drinking water votes were initiatives whereas the other three were referenda.

I’m not sure where you get the sixth one from as there were only 5 federal votes.
Yes should have said 3 out of 5. Don't know how I came up with 4 out of 6 :/

But don't you agree requiring cantonal majority for referenda as well would be better? In fact, I personally find it more important than the majority per head.
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  #364  
Old 13.06.2021, 17:07
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Yes should have said 3 out of 5. Don't know how I came up with 4 out of 6 :/

But don't you agree requiring cantonal majority for referenda as well would be better? In fact, I personally find it more important than the majority per head.
No. Referenda are challenges to legislative acts of the parliament in which the cantons are already represented.
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  #365  
Old 13.06.2021, 17:12
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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No. Referenda are challenges to legislative acts of the parliament in which the cantons are already represented.
But this type of referendum is an (amazing) method to keep the government accountable and stop it from doing things there is no support for. An argument saying that there is already indirect support through parliament won't cut it because the same is true for the individual vote.

Additionally the referendum is a form of direct democracy, your argument is indirect.
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  #366  
Old 13.06.2021, 17:16
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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But this type of referendum is an (amazing) method to keep the government accountable and stop it from doing things there is no support for. An argument saying that there is already indirect support through parliament won't cut it because the same is true for the individual vote.

Additionally the referendum is a form of direct democracy, your argument is indirect.
The cantonal vote is neither direct nor particularly representative, in that model votes in the small cantons (Uri, Obwalden) are worth about 40 times more than those in Zurich and about 30 times more than Bern.

The individual vote is properly direct, one person one vote all of the same value.
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  #367  
Old 13.06.2021, 17:19
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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The cantonal vote is neither direct nor particularly representative, in that model votes in the small cantons (Uri, Obwalden) are worth about 40 times more than those in Zurich and about 30 times more than Bern.

The individual vote is properly direct, one person one vote all of the same value.
Yes they should count 30 to 40 times more as Switzerland is a federation. All original cantons should have equal voting power irrespective of number of inhabitants. (I write original because of the Cantons that split and created halbkantons with 50% voting power).
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  #368  
Old 13.06.2021, 17:25
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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But this type of referendum is an (amazing) method to keep the government accountable and stop it from doing things there is no support for. An argument saying that there is already indirect support through parliament won't cut it because the same is true for the individual vote.

Additionally the referendum is a form of direct democracy, your argument is indirect.
Start an initiative then and change the constitution.
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  #369  
Old 13.06.2021, 17:42
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Start an initiative then and change the constitution.
Haha fair enough (although I think you need Swiss nationality for that). Also: is this indeed defined in the constitution? (at the level of detail of implementation)

For now I was mostly confirming I understood correctly and seeing whether there was a "valid" reason for doing this I missed. Seems the system here is slightly less good than I thought (still better than any other country I know of).

In practice I doubt there is often a deviation. Is that correct? (I'm sure you've been following these in detail for longer than me, I mostlý checked outcomes of major ones over the years). If so, the discussion is mostly theoretical (although it might get more practical as societies polarize more and more).
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  #370  
Old 13.06.2021, 17:45
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Yes they should count 30 to 40 times more as Switzerland is a federation. All original cantons should have equal voting power irrespective of number of inhabitants. (I write original because of the Cantons that split and created halbkantons with 50% voting power).
What should (and does) happen is defined in the federal constitution and implementing laws, which is what formed Switzerland as a federal entity and has been amended using that consistent set of rules since then.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, and you have some ways to implement that as it's a democracy (if you're Swiss...), but what you think should happen is not law.
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  #371  
Old 13.06.2021, 19:22
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

What bothers my daughter (28) most about the vote is the YES to the anti-terrorist thing.

Tom
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  #372  
Old 13.06.2021, 19:29
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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What should (and does) happen is defined in the federal constitution and implementing laws, which is what formed Switzerland as a federal entity and has been amended using that consistent set of rules since then.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, and you have some ways to implement that as it's a democracy (if you're Swiss...), but what you think should happen is not law.
Of course that's true. It was a reaction to someone claiming it shouldn't because of <inverse of my reaction> so they made the same mistake in formulating their statement and I mirrored that mistake.

My should is intended in the meaning: it should to stay closer to the formal definition of federation (which I assumed was the intention and a personal preference of me).

Of course everything can be amended/changed. For instance Switzerland was changed from a confederation to a federation after the sonderbund war around 1850. Since then federal law superseeds cantonal law and cantons cannot unilaterally secede anymore. (in my opinion this is unfortunate)
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  #373  
Old 13.06.2021, 19:41
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

So why do you care? You are not Swiss.
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  #374  
Old 13.06.2021, 20:06
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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So why do you care? You are not Swiss.
Not (yet) by nationality. By personality I'm closer than any other nationality. That's why I moved here. I intend to live here the rest of my life.
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  #375  
Old 13.06.2021, 20:11
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Not (yet) by nationality. By personality I'm closer than any other nationality. That's why I moved here. I intend to live here the rest of my life.
If you ever want to pass the test for citizenship, make sure you understand how the political system works. And I mean the current, not the one from before 1848 which you seem to admire
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  #376  
Old 13.06.2021, 20:20
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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If you ever want to pass the test for citizenship, make sure you understand how the political system works. And I mean the current, not the one from before 1848 which you seem to admire
All too often, understanding the past helps to understand the present. When a few datapoints aren't enough it may well be outright necessary.

Kudos for your efforts, wachtwoord.

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Haha fair enough (although I think you need Swiss nationality for that). Also: is this indeed defined in the constitution? (at the level of detail of implementation)
The right to formally launch a VolksInitiative is a political right. Only Swiss citizens have political rights on the federal level.
Such an undertaking needs lots of support and "brothers in arms", it's pretty much unavoidable that at least a few are Swiss citizens. So your own nationality isn't that important.
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  #377  
Old 13.06.2021, 20:23
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Thank god!

Alas, the stupid COVID and anti-terrorism BS did pass.

Tom
Exactly, I think the most important topics were rejected. I would have like to have seen the Covid act rejected too, but I can live with the result as Switzerland has handled everything relatively well so far and I trust the democratic system here if things ever start to get out of hand.
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  #378  
Old 13.06.2021, 20:27
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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If you ever want to pass the test for citizenship, make sure you understand how the political system works. And I mean the current, not the one from before 1848 which you seem to admire
Admire more haha

But do you think that'll be a problem considering my interest? I'm clearly actively paying attention to also understand the details, not just the main things I'm already familiar with.
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  #379  
Old 13.06.2021, 21:14
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

I feel a bit underwhelmed with the CO2 vote outcome Everyone can still afford a V8 and V12s...how am I supposed to be different?
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Old 13.06.2021, 22:04
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

I suspect the presence of the pesticide and Trinkwasser initiatives didn't help the yes to the CO2 law side.

Once you've started writing no to the initiatives it becomes easier to add the 3rd.
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