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View Poll Results: On which initiatives will you vote yes
Popular initiative “For clean drinking water and healthy food" 19 45.24%
Popular initiative “For a Switzerland without artificial pesticides” 18 42.86%
COVID-19 Act 21 50.00%
CO2 Act 16 38.10%
Federal Act on Police Measures to Combat Terrorism 13 30.95%
None of the above 11 26.19%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

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  #381  
Old 14.06.2021, 07:38
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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I suspect the presence of the pesticide and Trinkwasser initiatives didn't help the yes to the CO2 law side.

Once you've started writing no to the initiatives it becomes easier to add the 3rd.
Exactly what I was reading on the Tagblatt last night:

Was sind die Gründe für das Resultat? Am meisten muss sich der Bundesrat an der Nase nehmen. Es war strategisch ein grober Fehler, die CO2-Abstimmung auf denselben Sonntag zu setzen wie die beiden Agrarinitiativen. Diese haben insbesondere die Landbevölkerung massiv mobilisiert. Die Nein-Kampagne gegen die Trinkwasser- und Pestizidinitiative war so wuchtig, dass sie am Ende auch das CO2-Gesetz hinweggefegt hat.

Rought translation: What are the reasons for these results? Most of all, the Federal Council has to own it. It was a strategic mistake to put the CO2 vote on the same Sunday as the two agricultural initiatives. These have massively mobilized the rural population. The "no" campaign against the drinking water and pesticide initiative was so powerful that it ultimately swept away the CO2 law.
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  #382  
Old 14.06.2021, 08:55
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Exactly what I was reading on the Tagblatt last night:

Was sind die Gründe für das Resultat? Am meisten muss sich der Bundesrat an der Nase nehmen. Es war strategisch ein grober Fehler, die CO2-Abstimmung auf denselben Sonntag zu setzen wie die beiden Agrarinitiativen. Diese haben insbesondere die Landbevölkerung massiv mobilisiert. Die Nein-Kampagne gegen die Trinkwasser- und Pestizidinitiative war so wuchtig, dass sie am Ende auch das CO2-Gesetz hinweggefegt hat.

Rought translation: What are the reasons for these results? Most of all, the Federal Council has to own it. It was a strategic mistake to put the CO2 vote on the same Sunday as the two agricultural initiatives. These have massively mobilized the rural population. The "no" campaign against the drinking water and pesticide initiative was so powerful that it ultimately swept away the CO2 law.
while that is true, the major problem that the proposed solutions were simply not going to achieve the goal. Raising the tax on gas-guzzlers doesn’t reduce CO2; nor does it raising the tax on Mazout is going to move Landlords to adopt solar/geothermal. They can just put up the rent, and blame the government. (The majority of residents don’t own).

And in respect of aviation taxes, just look what happened in the UK. Truly onerous taxes hasn’t reduced flying, it’s continued to increase.
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  #383  
Old 14.06.2021, 09:06
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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while that is true, the major problem that the proposed solutions were simply not going to achieve the goal. Raising the tax on gas-guzzlers doesn’t reduce CO2; nor does it raising the tax on Mazout is going to move Landlords to adopt solar/geothermal. They can just put up the rent, and blame the government. (The majority of residents don’t own).

And in respect of aviation taxes, just look what happened in the UK. Truly onerous taxes hasn’t reduced flying, it’s continued to increase.
I believe that CO2 emissions have a high actual cost to the environment that today hardly anybody pays for. So at the end we all pay for the damage whether we contributed much or little. It is therefore logical to introduce/set/ increase a meaningful price of carbon emissions across large parts of the economy in order to incentivize companies and citizens to opt for less carbon intensive technology by making the use of those more competitive.

I work in a company that has to pay for (some of) its emissions, and believe me we are desperately looking for ways to reduce consumption of fuels now that CO2 costs more than 50 EUR/ton.

So I am all for putting a price on carbon as long as the income from this is used for renewable infrastructure and to socially balance some of the cost. Of course it is a form of redistribution, but not from the "hard working people" to the "lazy", but from the ones generating more emissions to those who generate less.
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  #384  
Old 14.06.2021, 09:18
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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while that is true, the major problem that the proposed solutions were simply not going to achieve the goal. Raising the tax on gas-guzzlers doesn’t reduce CO2; nor does it raising the tax on Mazout is going to move Landlords to adopt solar/geothermal. They can just put up the rent, and blame the government. (The majority of residents don’t own).

And in respect of aviation taxes, just look what happened in the UK. Truly onerous taxes hasn’t reduced flying, it’s continued to increase.
Exactly, I am pleased that this was rejected yesterday. Ultimately CO2 taxes are just a way of raising money without actually having any impact on Climate Change.

We need to get out of this mindset in Europe and the west in general that we and we alone can solve Climate Change through legislation and taxes. The reality of the matter is that the biggest driver for reducing CO2 emissions was the end of the Cold War. Since the mid 90s CO2 emissions have been steadily coming down across the West. We're already on the right path, but as long as the rest of the world continues to develop and grow at the rate it is doing so, our efforts are just but a drop in the Ocean.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...-by-region.png
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  #385  
Old 14.06.2021, 09:25
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Exactly, I am pleased that this was rejected yesterday. Ultimately CO2 taxes are just a way of raising money without actually having any impact on Climate Change.

We need to get out of this mindset in Europe and the west in general that we and we alone can solve Climate Change through legislation and taxes. The reality of the matter is that the biggest driver for reducing CO2 emissions was the end of the Cold War. Since the mid 90s CO2 emissions have been steadily coming down across the West. We're already on the right path, but as long as the rest of the world continues to develop and grow at the rate it is doing so, our efforts are just but a drop in the Ocean.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...-by-region.png
How convenient.

China is introducing carbon pricing now. Same logic, make polluters pay a price for the emissions and create incentives for new tech.
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  #386  
Old 14.06.2021, 09:31
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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How convenient.

China is introducing carbon pricing now. Same logic, make polluters pay a price for the emissions and create incentives for new tech.
Whilst building 30GW worth of coal fired power plants every year.
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  #387  
Old 14.06.2021, 09:43
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Exactly what I was reading on the Tagblatt last night:

Was sind die Gründe für das Resultat? Am meisten muss sich der Bundesrat an der Nase nehmen. Es war strategisch ein grober Fehler, die CO2-Abstimmung auf denselben Sonntag zu setzen wie die beiden Agrarinitiativen. Diese haben insbesondere die Landbevölkerung massiv mobilisiert. Die Nein-Kampagne gegen die Trinkwasser- und Pestizidinitiative war so wuchtig, dass sie am Ende auch das CO2-Gesetz hinweggefegt hat.

Rought translation: What are the reasons for these results? Most of all, the Federal Council has to own it. It was a strategic mistake to put the CO2 vote on the same Sunday as the two agricultural initiatives. These have massively mobilized the rural population. The "no" campaign against the drinking water and pesticide initiative was so powerful that it ultimately swept away the CO2 law.
I think this argument can be applied both ways .

The co2 initiative also helped mobilize the urban Greta crowd and they probably voted yes for the agricultural stuff as well.

So if there was any tactical grouping of these votes, which actually I doubt , it wasn’t clear in which direction that tactic would drag the other votes
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  #388  
Old 14.06.2021, 10:00
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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I think this argument can be applied both ways .

The co2 initiative also helped mobilize the urban Greta crowd and they probably voted yes for the agricultural stuff as well.

So if there was any tactical grouping of these votes, which actually I doubt , it wasn’t clear in which direction that tactic would drag the other votes
Would be interesting to see participation by canton, but haven't found consolidated data. In SZ, participation was 69% which is ca. 10% above the national number. Not many Gretas here in SZ.
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  #389  
Old 14.06.2021, 10:37
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Would be interesting to see participation by canton, but haven't found consolidated data. In SZ, participation was 69% which is ca. 10% above the national number. Not many Gretas here in SZ.
The SZ vote on COVID-19 getsetz kind of proves my point about your Kanton. Woke Aargau voted in favour!
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  #390  
Old 14.06.2021, 10:55
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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The SZ vote on COVID-19 getsetz kind of proves my point about your Kanton. Woke Aargau voted in favour!
And you were against it.

Central Switzerland majority against, partly out of their somewhat sympathetic "anti-government" stance, and partly also because it was a easy venting off no without much of a consequence.
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  #391  
Old 14.06.2021, 15:12
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Would be interesting to see participation by canton, but haven't found consolidated data. In SZ, participation was 69% which is ca. 10% above the national number. Not many Gretas here in SZ.
Here you go.
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The SZ vote on COVID-19 getsetz kind of proves my point about your Kanton. Woke Aargau voted in favour!
What has that law, or a Y or N on it, to do with woketivism???

Or is my sarcasm detector broken?
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  #392  
Old 14.06.2021, 15:37
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

Thanks, quite clear. So the mobilization worked in favour of 3x no.
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  #393  
Old 14.06.2021, 16:19
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

The only real solution to the CO2 problem is to build more nuclear-powered plants, which despite their critics, is a safe and reliable source of electricity. A major source of CO2 is transportation; how else does the Swiss government plan to power an entirely EV fleet in the country? They could also power electric heating.

Good luck getting the countryside to vote in favour of projects to build tens of thousands of windmills. Even hydroelectric plants find opposition among the greens, who live in la la land.

The sooner this is understood, the sooner we can start the planning for the new plants.
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Old 14.06.2021, 16:24
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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The only real solution to the CO2 problem is to build more nuclear-powered plants, which despite their critics, is a safe and reliable source of electricity. A major source of CO2 is transportation; how else does the Swiss government plan to power an entirely EV fleet in the country? They could also power electric heating.

Good luck getting the countryside to vote in favour of projects to build tens of thousands of windmills. Even hydroelectric plants find opposition among the greens, who live in la la land.

The sooner this is understood, the sooner we can start the planning for the new plants.
I agree. We need a base load of modern nuclear plants supported by wind, solar and hydro where these are viable and have an acceptably low impact on nature. And we also need to improve energy and resource efficiency because there is still too much avoidable waste.

We need to stop demonizing any given solution but selecting the best tool for the job at hand.
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  #395  
Old 14.06.2021, 17:05
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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I agree. We need a base load of modern nuclear plants supported by wind, solar and hydro where these are viable and have an acceptably low impact on nature. And we also need to improve energy and resource efficiency because there is still too much avoidable waste.

We need to stop demonizing any given solution but selecting the best tool for the job at hand.
Agree, and carbon capture & storage on large scale. This would allow some continued use of flexible fossil fuels. Nuclear and renewable only will still leave some room for balancing supply and demand. CCS will require a meaningful price on CO2 emissions. So will nuclear by the way as it is crazy expensive to build.

None of the solutions will work without putting a price on carbon emissions.

Last edited by komsomolez; 14.06.2021 at 17:18.
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  #396  
Old 14.06.2021, 17:12
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Raising the tax on gas-guzzlers doesn’t reduce CO2; nor does it raising the tax on Mazout is going to move Landlords to adopt solar/geothermal. They can just put up the rent, and blame the government. (The majority of residents don’t own).
While home ownership in Switzerland is around 45% IIRC (so yes, "the majority don't own" is correct, but it's not a significant majority, it's almost half of the households in the country, and those that do own are more likely to be able to upgrade or see it as an investment), the CO2 Gesetz proposed to create a fund with the collected tax that would be used to increase subsidies for renewable energy production, improved insulation in homes that would lead to lower heating production needs, and eventually stimulate industrial innovation in the field of renewables (read Art 53 through 57 in Chapter 7, starting on page 22): https://www.fedlex.admin.ch/eli/fga/2020/2013/de
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  #397  
Old 14.06.2021, 18:10
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts:
Homeownership levels in Switzerland are among the lowest in the world, measured at 37.4% of the population in 2016. Figures are lowest in Basel (16%) and Geneva (18.3%). This figure rises to nearly a third in Zurich.

Older Swiss residents are more likely to own their homes. 47.5% of over-65s are homeowners compared to only 26.1% of those aged between 25-65. The majority of homeowners live in more rural communities. The reasons for this are many: from population growth in cities straining the housing stock to rising prices and bureaucracy that delay property purchases.
https://www.expatica.com/ch/housing/...operty-100026/

And in Switzerland Home Ownership is a misnomer. Many don’t actually own more than 20-25%.
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  #398  
Old 14.06.2021, 18:27
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts
No need to be rude. I wasn’t all that far off, missed it by some 7% (between 38% and 45%), and I did say “IIRC” (which stands for if I remember correctly). That still leaves a generous 25% of the population that lives in their own house (I’m excluding flats for obvious reasons related to their inability to make decisions by themselves related to heating or photovoltaic arrays). Going back to the topic and not splitting hairs, I’m getting real numbers from the Bundesamt für Statistik:



There’s clearly a significant number of households that could take advantage of the increased subsidies to change old heating systems (either oil or wood burning stoves) for far more efficient heat pumps. THAT was the main goal of the CO2 Gesetz.
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Old 14.06.2021, 18:29
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

Sorry, but I don’t speak German.
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Old 14.06.2021, 18:35
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

My bad. 57% is, as you pointed out, people who live in a rented property, 2.9% in a shared-ownership property, 11.7% are owners of flats, and 24.6% are owners of houses. The last 3.3% are others (according to the full document it includes all other living arrangements, such as living in a property supplied by the employer as a fringe benefit, et al).
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