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View Poll Results: On which initiatives will you vote yes
Popular initiative “For clean drinking water and healthy food" 19 45.24%
Popular initiative “For a Switzerland without artificial pesticides” 18 42.86%
COVID-19 Act 21 50.00%
CO2 Act 16 38.10%
Federal Act on Police Measures to Combat Terrorism 13 30.95%
None of the above 11 26.19%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

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  #401  
Old 14.06.2021, 22:14
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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What bothers my daughter (28) most about the vote is the YES to the anti-terrorist thing.

Tom
This law is awful. Amazing that this was approved even in SZ which normally votes no on everything. If this isn't the state overreaching, what is?
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  #402  
Old 14.06.2021, 23:22
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

The law is necessary. Prevention is necessary. Law-abiding citizens don't have anything to be worried about.
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  #403  
Old 14.06.2021, 23:28
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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This law is awful. Amazing that this was approved even in SZ which normally votes no on everything. If this isn't the state overreaching, what is?
The SZ voter has evidently seen this as one of the Muslim votes (which they do vote Yes to) and cast their ballot accordingly.

(In reality I think an armed far right (white , Swiss) nationalist is more likely to be a threat here).
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  #404  
Old 14.06.2021, 23:32
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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The law is necessary. Prevention is necessary. Law-abiding citizens don't have anything to be worried about.
That's questionable given the law gives the police powers to act against individuals even when there's no evidence of guilt.
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  #405  
Old 14.06.2021, 23:32
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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The law is necessary. Prevention is necessary. Law-abiding citizens don't have anything to be worried about.
And terrorism is bad.
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  #406  
Old 15.06.2021, 09:54
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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That's questionable given the law gives the police powers to act against individuals even when there's no evidence of guilt.
That's not really true, or at least no more so than current arrest powers.

There is a right of appeal, at which point evidence must be produced. If the police abuse the process then the courts would make this clear and the usual checks and balances would kick in (i.e. outrage in the media, politicians posturing and moaning, several more referenda).

On the whole having these powers seems better than arresting people and trying to hold them as long as possible, or trying to get restraining orders under legislation which doesn't really fit the purpose.
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  #407  
Old 15.06.2021, 10:22
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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That's not really true, or at least no more so than current arrest powers.

There is a right of appeal, at which point evidence must be produced. If the police abuse the process then the courts would make this clear and the usual checks and balances would kick in (i.e. outrage in the media, politicians posturing and moaning, several more referenda).

On the whole having these powers seems better than arresting people and trying to hold them as long as possible, or trying to get restraining orders under legislation which doesn't really fit the purpose.
My gripe is that terrorism is a wishy washy word that gets used in an inflationary manner .

Not every case of police crossing the line leads to press outrage . The press doesn’t know everything . And some cases just don’t have enough dynamite to get people on their soap boxes , but they are injust nevertheless .
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  #408  
Old 15.06.2021, 11:14
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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The law is necessary. Prevention is necessary. Law-abiding citizens don't have anything to be worried about.
I get your sarcasm but that was the framing used by the Swiss press agency:

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Voters have endorsed a series of measures allowing police to crack down on militant extremists and apply preventive detention methods, giving Switzerland one of the strictest anti-terrorism legislations in Europe.

Opponents didn't succeed in showing the alleged weaknesses of the law according to political scientist Urs Bieri of the GfS Bern research institute. "Voters seem to have expressed their confidence in the government," he told SRF public radio.
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/controv...roval/46687348

So, special powers, they should use them wisely. If not, another referendum down to the road to take the powers away.
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  #409  
Old 15.06.2021, 11:22
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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The law is necessary. Prevention is necessary. Law-abiding citizens don't have anything to be worried about.
Nah, no institution should be given so much power.
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  #410  
Old 15.06.2021, 11:43
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Nah, no institution should be given so much power.
Quite open to discussion. Of course, recent memories in Europe of how the police was used to eliminate political opposition tell this is not a good idea. But, the new laws only give options, preventive detention is not an obligation. It's just there in case it's needed.

Meanwhile during 2020: people stabbed in Lugano and Morges (dead), Vienna 2020 shooting linked to guys in Winterthur. Cannot tell the Swiss are exaggerating when in France there's a shooting/stabbing/truck every once in a while and nothing seems to happen.

So, it's complicate :/

PS. just for perspective, Switzerland was regarded as a rogue state and safe haven for extremists...123 years ago when the Austrian Empress was stabbed and killed in Geneva. the Neue Zürcher Zeitung was quoted: When "noble women", were not longer safe from “the daggers of dehumanised fanatics", all methods were good that would free society "from the plague of anarchism". https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/series-...eart-/44844170
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  #411  
Old 15.06.2021, 11:49
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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We need to get out of this mindset in Europe and the west in general that we and we alone can solve Climate Change through legislation and taxes. The reality of the matter is that the biggest driver for reducing CO2 emissions was the end of the Cold War. Since the mid 90s CO2 emissions have been steadily coming down across the West. We're already on the right path, but as long as the rest of the world continues to develop and grow at the rate it is doing so, our efforts are just but a drop in the Ocean.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...-by-region.png
Or we could look at these as two separate issues?
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  #412  
Old 15.06.2021, 12:07
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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We need to get out of this mindset in Europe and the west in general that we and we alone can solve Climate Change through legislation and taxes. The reality of the matter is that the biggest driver for reducing CO2 emissions was the end of the Cold War. Since the mid 90s CO2 emissions have been steadily coming down across the West. We're already on the right path, but as long as the rest of the world continues to develop and grow at the rate it is doing so, our efforts are just but a drop in the Ocean.
Not every one is a nerdy car guy so you don't have to know this but......the EURO car emission standards are exported to the world.

Globally there are 3 main car emission standards: USA, Euro, and Japan. USA standards are used as source for standards in Canada and Mexico and implicitly in the rest of America. Japan standards are only applied in Japan. However, the largest Asian countries (China and India), and one of the argest car exporters (South Korea) take Euro standards as inspiration for their local ones.

So, useless legislation
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Old 15.06.2021, 12:17
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Or we could look at these as two separate issues?
I don't think you can. The rise of China is going to be the biggest geo-political threat to Western democracy for the remainder of the century. If you believe Climate Change is such a severe threat, then the rise of developing world cannot be reconciled with carbon emissions targets.

In the long term the west will never be able to compete with these factors if it is constantly being stymied by pointless climate legislation that make not a jot of difference to global carbon emissions anyway. Our obsession with unreliable energy sources like Solar and Wind only exemplify this further. As others have said, if we were serious about combatting CO2 emissions then we'd embrace the only proven, scalable and reliable source of non-CO2 energy and that's Nuclear.

It gets worse, virtually all the materials for so called "Green" technology comes from China which runs its economy on fossil fuels. The majority of the components for those nice solar panels and wind turbines, come from China who have literally hundreds of Coal plants planned for construction. Even much of the mining for materials needed for "clean" things like batteries for electric cars come from places like China, because green regulations make it prohibitive to mine them elsewhere.

Our dependence on China for "renewable clean energy" will soon surpass our past dependence on the Middle East for oil, if it's not already done so.
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  #414  
Old 15.06.2021, 12:26
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Our obsession with unreliable energy sources like Solar and Wind only exemplify this further. As others have said, if we were serious about combatting CO2 emissions then we'd embrace the only proven, scalable and reliable source of non-CO2 energy and that's Nuclear.
- 1970s oil crisis: Am I a joke to you? Do you really want more unreliability? Oil was sooooo unreliable that it single-handedly motivated the constructions of dozens of reactors in Europe.

We're next to France and happily buying electrons from them when needed. So, if we're not embracing ourselves nuclear power, our wallets surely do.
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Old 15.06.2021, 12:39
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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In the long term the west will never be able to compete with these factors if it is constantly being stymied by pointless climate legislation that make not a jot of difference to global carbon emissions anyway. Our obsession with unreliable energy sources like Solar and Wind only exemplify this further. As others have said, if we were serious about combatting CO2 emissions then we'd embrace the only proven, scalable and reliable source of non-CO2 energy and that's Nuclear.
Charging for carbon emissions and building nuclear are not mutually exclusive, actually they would go hand in hand. Otherwise nuclear is not competitive, i.e. would need subsidies. The NPP investment decision in the UK some years back needed a guaranteed power price of more than double the market price. A meaningful CO2 price achieves the same, only that here the polluters would pay directly instead of the taxpayer.

But I guess what you are really saying is, we cannot do anything anyhow so let me go back to live my life like there was no climate change.
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  #416  
Old 15.06.2021, 12:51
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

Nuclear power doesn't need subsidies to be profitable. At this point you might have to make an enforcable promise to not pull a Germany (force retiring perfectly fine nuclear plants decades before they would need to at the cost of the private investor) though.

Also if your claim that subsidies are needed were true it would be more logical to subsidize it directly than making the subsidy unneccesary by applying a negative subsidy (carbon tax) on everything else. That's shooting with hail.

(Note I oppose nearly any subsidy ever, just arguing on a relative basis here).

Regarding climate change:

1. Climate change itself has insufficient evidence. The data is inconclusive. The conclusions being drawn are statistically not-significant (or even close to it), and politically motivated.
2. If there is climate change no conclusive evidence exists it's caused by humans. There are so many factors influencing it that we know very little of (eg dozens of cycli in the sun, the Earth's core and magnetic field) that the conclusion that man caused it is very simplistic, unlikely and frankly arrogant as hell.
3. Even if there is man made climate change there is insufficient evidence regarding how it is caused and what measures would stop it (if any).
4. Even if there is climate change caused by humans and it would be possible to stop or reverse it insufficient evidence exists to decide whether we should. Yes climate change could be good (eg avert an ice age). I'm not saying it is, I'm saying nor me, nor anyone else knows (even enough to make an educated guess)

When you don't know what the hell you are doing the bedt course of action is to do nothing and observe as patiently and attentively as possible. Everything else is hubris (or political manipulation to help people to power and your wallet)

Last edited by wachtwoord; 15.06.2021 at 13:04.
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  #417  
Old 15.06.2021, 12:56
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Not every one is a nerdy car guy so you don't have to know this but......the EURO car emission standards are exported to the world.

Globally there are 3 main car emission standards: USA, Euro, and Japan. USA standards are used as source for standards in Canada and Mexico and implicitly in the rest of America. Japan standards are only applied in Japan. However, the largest Asian countries (China and India), and one of the argest car exporters (South Korea) take Euro standards as inspiration for their local ones.

So, useless legislation
Care to point out on the chart where this has made a dent in global CO2 emissions?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...-by-region.png
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  #418  
Old 15.06.2021, 13:01
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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But, the new laws only give options, preventive detention is not an obligation. It's just there in case it's needed.
The Thought Police are coming.
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  #419  
Old 15.06.2021, 13:09
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Nuclear power doesn't need subsidies to be profitable. At this point you might have to make an enforcable promise to not pull a Germany (force retiring perfectly fine nuclear plants decades before they would need to at the cost of the private investor) though.

Also if your claim that subsidies are needed were true it would be more logical to subsidize it directly than making the subsidy unneccesary by applying a negative subsidy (carbon tax) on everything else. That's shooting with hail.

(Note I oppose nearly any subsidy ever, just arguing on a relative basis here).

Regarding climate change:

1. Climate change itself has insufficient evidence. The data is inconclusive. The conclusions being drawn are statistically not-significant (or even close to it), and politically motivated.
2. If there is climate change no conclusive evidence exists it's caused by humans. There are so many factors influencing it that we know very little of (eg dozens of cycli in the sun, the Earth's core and magnetic field) that the conclusion that man caused it is very simplistic, unlikely and frankly arrogant as hell.
3. Even if there is man made climate change there is insufficient evidence regarding how it is caused and what measures would stop it (if any).
4. Even if there is climate change caused by humans and it would be possible to stop or reverse it insufficient evidence exists to decide whether we should. Yes climate change could be good (eg avert an ice age). I'm not saying it is, I'm saying nor me, nor anyone else knows (even enough to make an educated guess)

When you don't know what the hell you are doing the bedt course of action is to do nothing and observe as patiently and attentively as possible. Everything else is hubris (or political manipulation to help people to power and your wallet)
I am happy to discuss controversially about how to deal with climate change. I will not do this with someone who doesn't accept the overwhelming scientific evidence that climate change is real and largely driven by mankind.
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  #420  
Old 15.06.2021, 13:19
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Care to point out on the chart where this has made a dent in global CO2 emissions?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...-by-region.png
The car emission standards were made for sulfur and nitrogen oxides with the goal of less ozone, less acid rain, less breathing problems in people. Car emission standards only included CO2 since 2014 (yesterday in car average lifetime).

Also, last years several car manufacturers have already announced they will not develop gasoline or diesel engines anymore for economy models. The motivation is future EURO7 emission standards may make economy ICE cars non-profitable to make and sell. Of course, there will still be V-10 Lamborghinis, W12 Audis, and whatever Ferrari puts on their models, but most of people will drive an electric car, probably generated by uranium fission.

One of the most interesting things I've seen during the EURO2020 is the huge marketing effort for VW id3 and id4. They want to make them look normal. Funny to see Swiss football players in the ads, I'm curious is the same strategy is applied in other countries with other local players.

Well, what matters is the C02 vote failed, and a few weeks ago Switzerland -EU negotiations failed compromising Swiss electricity imports in the future.....and we still need lots of electrons to fuel the cars. So, good news for the Swiss nuclear industry, people may fall in love with them once again.
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