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View Poll Results: On which initiatives will you vote yes
Popular initiative “For clean drinking water and healthy food" 19 45.24%
Popular initiative “For a Switzerland without artificial pesticides” 18 42.86%
COVID-19 Act 21 50.00%
CO2 Act 16 38.10%
Federal Act on Police Measures to Combat Terrorism 13 30.95%
None of the above 11 26.19%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

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  #421  
Old 15.06.2021, 13:31
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Charging for carbon emissions and building nuclear are not mutually exclusive, actually they would go hand in hand. Otherwise nuclear is not competitive, i.e. would need subsidies. The NPP investment decision in the UK some years back needed a guaranteed power price of more than double the market price. A meaningful CO2 price achieves the same, only that here the polluters would pay directly instead of the taxpayer.

But I guess what you are really saying is, we cannot do anything anyhow so let me go back to live my life like there was no climate change.
The taxpayers always pay in one way or another; likely as customers of the "polluters"
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  #422  
Old 15.06.2021, 13:33
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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I am happy to discuss controversially about how to deal with climate change. I will not do this with someone who doesn't accept the overwhelming scientific evidence that climate change is real and largely driven by mankind.
Have you read (some of) the scientific publications? I have (academic background) and the conclusions they are drawing are clearly not statistically significant. It's not surprising most scientific research will point to this when (nearly?) all of the grants and positions are granted to researchers who's studies have this outcome. No room for academic integrity when their livelihood is on the line. This is the risk of the secularization of universities. Of course similar problems exists with church run universities just ask Galileo. Very little research is truly independant (mostly math and theoretical physics).

Also as an additional point: be very careful with the trust scientists mantra. One only needs to look at the Russian revolution to see how dangerous that is. Scientists/intellectuals is a social class (now) and it does not mean what they say is the outcome of rigorous application of the scientific method.

Of course no need to discuss it further. You're free to do whatever you like. (and by all means don't believe me blindly either, but I have the feeling there is no risk of that)
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  #423  
Old 15.06.2021, 13:50
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

‘The planet is fine, the people are...’

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  #424  
Old 15.06.2021, 14:34
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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‘The planet is fine, the people are...’

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  #425  
Old 15.06.2021, 21:01
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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My gripe is that terrorism is a wishy washy word that gets used in an inflationary manner .
That may well be true WRT journalistic and layman's use of the word, as the proponents of Critical Theory and its many derivatives aim to redefine an awful lot of words that are central to public discourse.

But in the international legal sense terrorism seems to have been defined fairly well and reasonably narrowly for many decades. For instance the European Convention on Combating Terrorism, apparently broadened by the Council of Europe Convention on the Prevention of Terrorism later on, has been created and ratified by the first signatory contries more than 7 decades ago or more, its article 1 lists the crimes covered.
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  #426  
Old 17.06.2021, 12:22
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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The SZ voter has evidently seen this as one of the Muslim votes (which they do vote Yes to) and cast their ballot accordingly.

(In reality I think an armed far right (white , Swiss) nationalist is more likely to be a threat here).
Not so evidently. PMT was actually supported by the less right-leaning parts of SZ (Höfe, March, Küssnacht, Gersau) and disapproved in the inner parts of the canton.

https://abstimmungen.sz.ch/vote/bund...s-pmt/entities
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  #427  
Old 20.06.2021, 18:33
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

Gotta love how the lefties imagine the Swiss direct democracy. We will vote until we get the wanted outcome.

https://www.20min.ch/fr/story/simone...e-738891689665
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  #428  
Old 20.06.2021, 18:41
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Gotta love how the lefties imagine the Swiss direct democracy. We will vote until the we get the wanted outcome.

https://www.20min.ch/fr/story/simone...e-738891689665
Yeah, like this is different on the right.

Majorities change. Otherwise we could hold a vote on all things now and then never do another vote ever again.

Last edited by komsomolez; 20.06.2021 at 19:09.
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  #429  
Old 20.06.2021, 19:22
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Gotta love how the lefties imagine the Swiss direct democracy. We will vote until we get the wanted outcome.

https://www.20min.ch/fr/story/simone...e-738891689665
Who is "we"?
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  #430  
Old 20.06.2021, 19:27
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Care to point out on the chart where this has made a dent in global CO2 emissions?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...-by-region.png
Take a look at the countries in the chart with such standards versus the rest
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  #431  
Old 20.06.2021, 19:27
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Yeah, like this is different on the right.
Any examples?

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Majorities change. Otherwise we could hold a vote on all things now and then never do another vote ever again.
So what if majority change? We will vote every 3 months on the same topics hoping the majority will change?

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Who is "we"?
We are the tax paying mere mortals who believe we have a choice
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  #432  
Old 21.06.2021, 11:14
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Any examples?



So what if majority change? We will vote every 3 months on the same topics hoping the majority will change?
Examples? Every refuge -related initiative that SVP lost the last 15 years

Not 3 months, maybe 6-8 years? As far as I can tell, 18 years old teenagers now think quite differently than 10 years ago, when I started teaching.
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  #433  
Old 21.06.2021, 12:47
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Gotta love how the lefties imagine the Swiss direct democracy. We will vote until we get the wanted outcome.

https://www.20min.ch/fr/story/simone...e-738891689665
I guess that how it works. Gather signatures, vote. There's nothing against repeating a vote, or could you show any law? You know, laws, the things that matter, not opinions.
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  #434  
Old 21.06.2021, 13:01
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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I guess that how it works. Gather signatures, vote. There's nothing against repeating a vote, or could you show any law? You know, laws, the things that matter, not opinions.
As long as you can get the required number of signatures anyone with voting rights in Switzerland can initiate a vote.

From reading that article it seems that this vote was too complex and involved too many things. By revising it a bit it may well be accepted.
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  #435  
Old 21.06.2021, 14:18
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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As long as you can get the required number of signatures anyone with voting rights in Switzerland can initiate a vote.

From reading that article it seems that this vote was too complex and involved too many things. By revising it a bit it may well be accepted.
This is the constant of Swiss politics.

Every group who ever lost a vote go around saying, we could have won this if we had been slightly less extreme. The SVP does this all the time as do the Lefists. And indeed a vote that was lost by a narrow margin often does put the winners in an uncomfortable position.

This is why the concept of Gegenvorschlag was invented. The government puts forward a watered down counter proposal. And if that gets rejected too, that puts to bed any illusions of might have been.
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  #436  
Old 21.06.2021, 15:18
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Gotta love how the lefties imagine the Swiss direct democracy. We will vote until we get the wanted outcome.

https://www.20min.ch/fr/story/simone...e-738891689665
Yeah because the UDC-SVP doesn't keep proposing the same stuff on immigrants & the EU just slightly changing the wording (like that ridiculous one on the EU gun regulations done a year ago).

And in some cases, like the initiative on the taxation of married people, there is a good argument to vote again.
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  #437  
Old 21.06.2021, 18:42
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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And in some cases, like the initiative on the taxation of married people, there is a good argument to vote again.
There's no "some" in that regard, that was the only VolksInitiative (possibly the first federal vote at all) that was ever ruled invalid.

It's not the SVP's fault that they're the only party with a critical stance on the EU. That makes them the obvious and only choice for everybody who's against "an EU with ever-closer ties and ever-increasing integration" (to paraphrase Jean-Claude Juncker). Especially the SP (social-democrats) place themselves obviously against the people they pretend to stand in for (those on the bottom part of the socioeconomic ladder) with their pro-EU course, the derogatory "CüpliSozi" (champagne socialists) is rather apt, they earn it.
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  #438  
Old 21.06.2021, 20:50
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Yeah because the UDC-SVP doesn't keep proposing the same stuff on immigrants & the EU just slightly changing the wording (like that ridiculous one on the EU gun regulations done a year ago).

And in some cases, like the initiative on the taxation of married people, there is a good argument to vote again.
It will still be NO.

Tom
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  #439  
Old 22.06.2021, 13:29
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Gotta love how the lefties imagine the Swiss direct democracy. We will vote until we get the wanted outcome.

https://www.20min.ch/fr/story/simone...e-738891689665
I think you slightly misunderstood that. CO2 is a subject that needs tackling. What she means is that she realizes that the offered way is not accepted, they have to find new ways where all (okay the majority) agrees to. So no, we will not vote about the same thing but about other solutions for the same problem.

The fun bit in that interview, imo, was Somarugas: " I'm a fighter - that's probably one of the reasons why boxing fascinates me so much."

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..... From reading that article it seems that this vote was too complex and involved too many things. By revising it a bit it may well be accepted.
Which unfortunately often is the case, as I mentioned far up in this thread. It's the "while we're at it" syndrome which kills many good ideas (not meaning the CO2 vote this month in particular).
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  #440  
Old 22.06.2021, 19:41
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

Interestingly enough, the young appear to have tipped the scale for the CO2 law.
The rest of the population was pretty much split 50/50 (with a slight overweight of Yes), the young (age 18-34) said No decisively and decided for everybody.

Assuming the poll by Tagesanzeiger (paywall) can be trusted. The overall result is pretty much the same as the actual vote, IMHO that gives it significant credibility.

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