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View Poll Results: On which initiatives will you vote yes
Popular initiative “For clean drinking water and healthy food" 19 45.24%
Popular initiative “For a Switzerland without artificial pesticides” 18 42.86%
COVID-19 Act 21 50.00%
CO2 Act 16 38.10%
Federal Act on Police Measures to Combat Terrorism 13 30.95%
None of the above 11 26.19%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

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  #101  
Old 18.05.2021, 15:37
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Are you so naive to think this happens everywhere but Switzerland?
Just because a scandal happens in one place does not necessarily mean that it categorically is happening in every country. That link is also from January 2019 and there was already a lot of spotlight on it at the time and has been since.

it is extremely unlikely that in CH, during a worldwide pandemic, doctors are being 'paid to give COVID vaccination exemptions' and instead it is far more likely they will not give them unless a patient fits the established criteria for it. The mount of money needed to make that kind of risk worthwhile would have to be very significant.

Last edited by Chuff; 18.05.2021 at 15:54.
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  #102  
Old 18.05.2021, 15:40
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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I just don't understand the link between the "2 x nein" posters that depict sawing off the tree branch that various people are sitting on....

We have the posters all through our area, and whilst appreciate the reasons for folks voting against the topics, I can understand the graphical meaning of having empty pockets etc, but just cannot make sense of the branch being sawed off in the picture...maybe it's all too clever for me, or am I having a seniors moment?

https://www.extreme-agrarinitiativen-nein.ch/
It's a fairly common cartoon to indicate stupidity, and they're putting the family / animals / bakers on the branch to say that the stupidity (as they see it) will badly affect others.
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  #103  
Old 18.05.2021, 15:52
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

My views, on which I can't yet vote and not intended to be anything other than some thoughts.

Drinking Water / Food - no, although a bunch of it I'd agree to (no antibiotics for example), things like only allowing fodder from the same farm are environmentally pointless.

Pesticides - no - we should ban more but on a case-by-case approach, blanket bans seldom work out well.

COVID - yes, on balance it seems OK and it's hard to see a good alternative to e.g. vaccination passports and contact tracing.

CO2 - yes, we need to get on with fixing this problem.

PMCT - no, too many sweeping powers for my liking.
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  #104  
Old 18.05.2021, 16:01
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Just because a scandal happens in one place does not necessarily mean that it categorically is happening in every country. That link is also from January 2019 and there was already a lot of spotlight on it at the time and has been since.

it is extremely unlikely that in CH, during a worldwide pandemic, doctors are being 'paid to give COVID vaccination exemptions' and instead it is far more likely they will not give them unless a patient fits the established criteria for it. The mount of money needed to make that kind of risk worthwhile would have to be very significant.
You may have quoted the wrong post.

I wrote:

Quote:
No all doctors are ethical. Some are anti-vaccine. Many are pro-homeopathic.

And some are just plain crooks.

I'm sure that it would be possible to find one who would forge a document.
Which is obviously not just about COVID but generally.

Anyway, there's no need for a forged certificate unless there is some future requirement for a vaccine passport for travel, or for employment.
At the moment there is no requirement.
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  #105  
Old 18.05.2021, 16:09
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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You may have quoted the wrong post.
No, I quoted the post you specifically made about doctors being paid to give exemptions... it was all on topic of our conversation and amogles joined in it and you then responded to him.

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Doing it just for the money (and sometimes charging a repeat fee every three months) seems to be occurring in the U.S. for childhood vaccinations (required by schools) with vaccinations in some places falling below the requirement for herd immunity.

Link
Anyway, my point is that you are making your own subjective assumptions about CH that are not based on fact.
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  #106  
Old 18.05.2021, 16:14
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Anyway, my point is that you are making your own subjective assumptions about CH that are not based on fact.
I cannot make an assumption based on fact for something that couldn't have possibly happened yet, could I?

For doctors acting illegally or unethically - yes this happens all over the world - including Switzerland.
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  #107  
Old 18.05.2021, 16:21
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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I cannot make an assumption based on fact for something that couldn't have possibly happened yet, could I?

For doctors acting illegally or unethically - yes this happens all over the world - including Switzerland.
Sure, Tom. The context of what I wrote was very clear so lets just agree to disagree rather waste time with circular arguments and pseudo-intellectual showboating.
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  #108  
Old 18.05.2021, 16:46
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Anyway, my point is that you are making your own subjective assumptions about CH that are not based on fact.
And you’re not?

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Sure, Tom. The context of what I wrote was very clear so lets just agree to disagree rather waste time with circular arguments and pseudo-intellectual showboating.
I don’t think your posts are as clear as you seem to think they are.
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  #109  
Old 18.05.2021, 17:09
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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2x:

No.
No.
No.
No.
No.

Tom
Think this is how I would vote too.
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  #110  
Old 18.05.2021, 17:14
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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There was a GP not far from here who was known as ‘Dr Sicknote’ by the locals as he handed them out like sweeties.
This is the reason many companies have a doctor of their own to double check suspicious sicknotes and repeat absenteeism.

And I do know of two cases of individuals who quite obviously (in my opinion anyway) gamed the system. Both managed to get away with it for quite a few years. One even right into retirement. He was a high manager and managed to get a new company car and full bonuses payed despite missing out on the best part of his last two years at work. And HR had several lawyers working full out to try and get him but to no avail.
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  #111  
Old 18.05.2021, 17:18
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Anyway, there's no need for a forged certificate unless there is some future requirement for a vaccine passport for travel, or for employment.
At the moment there is no requirement.
No requirement maybe. But quite a lot of soft pressure. Including pressure by employers.
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  #112  
Old 18.05.2021, 17:27
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Drinking Water / Food - no, although a bunch of it I'd agree to (no antibiotics for example), things like only allowing fodder from the same farm are environmentally pointless. .
and I can vote and say Yes.

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Pesticides - no - we should ban more but on a case-by-case approach, blanket bans seldom work out well..
There is technologies accessible today that require no more use of any chemicals to be used and wealthy country that build its reputation by promoting fresh air and progress - should be one on the edge of technology when it comes to agriculture .

We can have machines that use lasers to eliminate weeds and whatever you want running 24/h and no need for pesticides . Of course every farmer would want one when paid by our taxes - so at the end it's our tax that is defining what we eat and how we pollute our own environment.

I am not saying it's the only thing needed - I say there is things agro-SVP doesn't want to look at as simply it's easier and cheaper for them to look back. They are not recognised for being most progressive either.
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  #113  
Old 18.05.2021, 20:19
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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There is technologies accessible today that require no more use of any chemicals to be used and wealthy country that build its reputation by promoting fresh air and progress - should be one on the edge of technology when it comes to agriculture .

We can have machines that use lasers to eliminate weeds and whatever you want running 24/h and no need for pesticides . Of course every farmer would want one when paid by our taxes - so at the end it's our tax that is defining what we eat and how we pollute our own environment.

I am not saying it's the only thing needed - I say there is things agro-SVP doesn't want to look at as simply it's easier and cheaper for them to look back. They are not recognised for being most progressive either.
From what I've seen this seems to be a typical referendum vote - complete fantasy and impossible to implement.

I agree CH should be cutting edge, and use less pesticides, but yeah of course lasers are the answer to all our problems
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  #114  
Old 18.05.2021, 20:37
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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From what I've seen this seems to be a typical referendum vote - complete fantasy and impossible to implement.

I agree CH should be cutting edge, and use less pesticides, but yeah of course lasers are the answer to all our problems
This one is super easy to implement - let me show you how :

"Drinking water initiative aims to better protect the environment and drinking water. Direct subsidies should only be paid out to farmers ... "

any issues with that ...?

and whoever wants to use pesticides - is not stopped - just won't get your and my tax money for "status quo".

and back to lasers :
https://grdc.com.au/resources-and-pu...eed-management

yes, I know they can't fix everything but I still like them .. AI/ML and Lasers ..sounds like a days of going for neighbours strawberry on summer evening are over
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  #115  
Old 18.05.2021, 20:43
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

we can collect data regarding substances: biodegradability, the dose that makes it toxic, whether it accumulates, how much has to get used for it to be effective.

Any decision to ban or limit the use of certain substances should be based on these. Not quackery.

Besides, plants, various monocellular organisms and animals synthetize chemicals all the time, including against pests, so the initiative is banning everything, in a strict interpretation. I can hardly believe someone who knows the first thing about scientific thought would want to put a confused text like this one in the constitution.

The government already regulates and measures increasingly more substances in the water sources. I can understand wanting a more prudential approach, but this is extreme, as the farmers say.
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  #116  
Old 18.05.2021, 21:18
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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T"Drinking water initiative aims to better protect the environment and drinking water. Direct subsidies should only be paid out to farmers ... "

any issues with that ...?

and whoever wants to use pesticides - is not stopped - just won't get your and my tax money for "status quo".
As I said in my original post - yes, I have issues with that. I don't agree that all pesticides should be banned, so I also don't agree that direct subsidies should be tied to that. I also said I don't support the status quo, we probably should restrict pesticide use further.

Some of the subsidies are already tied to organic farming and not using pesticides.
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  #117  
Old 18.05.2021, 21:30
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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FTFY.

Tom
Failing that I check Tom’s choices and vote the opposite.
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  #118  
Old 18.05.2021, 21:52
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

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Failing that I check Tom’s choices and vote the opposite.
I have a cunning plan...

Tom
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  #119  
Old 18.05.2021, 21:53
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

Can the Swiss citizens here please start an initiative that all EF members shall be granted the right to vote irrespective of passport? Thank you
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  #120  
Old 18.05.2021, 21:53
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Re: Vote June 13th 2021

Vote the opposite to whatever Schrodinger would vote?

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I have a cunning plan...

Tom
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