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  #81  
Old 03.05.2021, 15:00
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

Sure, but probably before going abroad they should try finding work locally first? Like the rest of the people do? Going abroad as unskilled worker is much more difficult and risky. You need capital for travel and for the beginning, maybe new language to learn and most likely different employment laws to know?

I've seen many documentaries about berry pickers, salmon farms etc, but gypsies working there... Did not catch my eye for some reason. Please share any if you know. It would be interesting to see.

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No. Most do actually want to work. That often results in being taken away by a bus in the middle of the night to spend a week or two picking asparagus in Germany or apples in France for a pitiful wage, sleeping ten to a room and working 14 hour shifts while some middle-man makes a lot of money. Or carrying bricks on construction sites while living in constant fear of police raids because their employer is too cheap to put them on actual contracts.

I don't think anybody here would want to change places with them.

In any society there will be people who cut corners to make quick money. But it's not fair to tarnish all with the same brush.
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  #82  
Old 03.05.2021, 15:06
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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Sure, but probably before going abroad they should try finding work locally first? Like the rest of the people do?
You are posting this on an expat forum...
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  #83  
Old 03.05.2021, 15:10
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

Are you saying most of the people here just came to CH right after the school?

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You are posting this on an expat forum...
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Old 03.05.2021, 15:14
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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Sure, but probably before going abroad they should try finding work locally first? Like the rest of the people do? Going abroad as unskilled worker is much more difficult and risky. You need capital for travel and for the beginning, maybe new language to learn and most likely different employment laws to know?

I've seen many documentaries about berry pickers, salmon farms etc, but gypsies working there... Did not catch my eye for some reason. Please share any if you know. It would be interesting to see.
Any time you are in Hungary I can show you people who have been doing that for years. Some actually did so well that they now have luxuries like electricity and running water at home, setting them head and shoulders above the rest of the punters.
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Old 03.05.2021, 15:27
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

We are talking about different things here. You are talking about few good examples forgetting about the whole community as such. I am glad that some of them made their way to a better living. Good for them.

However, go there for a few beers and talk about taxes, illegal housing, having to pay the bills and the future they are thinking.

https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/commen...f_ko%C5%A1ice/

Where do you think most likely those beggars in Basel came from? Similar guys like you are talking about, or from that picture?

If they can't cleanup after themselves in a community that's the lifestyle they actually want to have.

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Any time you are in Hungary I can show you people who have been doing that for years. Some actually did so well that they now have luxuries like electricity and running water at home, setting them head and shoulders above the rest of the punters.
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Old 03.05.2021, 15:45
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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We are talking about different things here. You are talking about few good examples forgetting about the whole community as such. I am glad that some of them made their way to a better living. Good for them.
I think you have it the wrong way round. The people who are well meaning and want to work their way out of poverty largely outnumber those who think they can steal or cheat their way out.

In some cases the are held back by cultural factors, but also by external factors such as discrimination or just geography. Many live in poorer rural parts of the country where finding a good job is not just a question of trying a bit harder.

There is also a culture of change. The grandparents were happy they had a place to live and could do some odd jobs to stay afloat and had something like 7 kids. Some of the middle aged ones think its cool to have a mobile phone (second hand) and actually own the house they live in (even if it's very basic) and have maybe only 3 or 4 kids. Some of the young ones thinks its cool to get a proper education and a job that actually pays and are down to two kids.

And then there is the factor of keeping up with the crowd. Kids see others are doing better because they work and chose to follow that path. Success can be contagious. You just need a couple within a community who get it and within a generation or two most of the others will follow.

The problem of those going away to work is that they come home with their pockets full of money but nobody sees the hardships they went through to make that money. So the pimps playing them keep on having it easy to get young folks to cooperate.
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Old 03.05.2021, 16:07
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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Are you saying most of the people here just came to CH right after the school?
I for one came here 2002 as an intern... yes, before graduating from university.

I have respect for anyone working hard to make his life better. Willing to move country and work in a place with added language barrier and what not else? Deserves respect, no matter what the education level is... if anything is it even harder for less educated people. Yes, I would include illegal immigrants working as fruit pickers or what not in that. I cant blame them for trying to get a better life - and I feel sad for them getting pimped out like they do. You asked for any documentary... here is one on the tomato business in Italy. (It includes a lot more issues as label fraud and deception... but around min 3 can you see a guy who got beaten up by the pimps when he tried to work without paying them...) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChkpkXAlIyw

I think the point is that I dont agree that a beggar is really "working" in my sense of the word...
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Old 03.05.2021, 16:09
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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You do realise these IDs are fake, I hope. Which makes me wonder how on earth they can board here..if nothing else..Typical cost appears to be 214 chf last time I checked btw. This article made me very curious.
Not sure about you, but I refrain from inserting any claims of my own when summarising an article.
That said, the "apparently no country does" should be a strong hint in that direction for anybody able to read between the lines. My opinion on that is expressed by "buy another forged ID".


ETA:
As for your Google Fu, you may want to improve it. Here's the result of my first try:


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  #89  
Old 03.05.2021, 16:39
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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I think you have it the wrong way round. The people who are well meaning and want to work their way out of poverty largely outnumber those who think they can steal or cheat their way out.
This is your opinion. I think it is the opposite, assuming we are talking about gypsies, not people in general.

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In some cases the are held back by cultural factors, but also by external factors such as discrimination or just geography. Many live in poorer rural parts of the country where finding a good job is not just a question of trying a bit harder.

There is also a culture of change. The grandparents were happy they had a place to live and could do some odd jobs to stay afloat and had something like 7 kids. Some of the middle aged ones think its cool to have a mobile phone (second hand) and actually own the house they live in (even if it's very basic) and have maybe only 3 or 4 kids. Some of the young ones thinks its cool to get a proper education and a job that actually pays and are down to two kids.

And then there is the factor of keeping up with the crowd. Kids see others are doing better because they work and chose to follow that path. Success can be contagious. You just need a couple within a community who get it and within a generation or two most of the others will follow.

The problem of those going away to work is that they come home with their pockets full of money but nobody sees the hardships they went through to make that money. So the pimps playing them keep on having it easy to get young folks to cooperate.
I might be living too short to witness the change between generations and I truly hope this is happening. Governments pour millions to drag them out of poverty. I have seen my home country government providing them subsidised housing, free schools etc. However they moved in, trashed the place, stoped paying bills (which are reduced anyway) and here we go, another ghetto just closer to the city center. During that operation probably 1 out of 100 families changed the lifestyle and appreciated the help. I doubt it was worth spending so much money, ruining neighbourhood etc.

Maybe I am just too old to believe in santa claus, but I just can't have my head around how to change such community (Lunik IX, Slovakia). Where do you even start?
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  #90  
Old 03.05.2021, 16:54
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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I for one came here 2002 as an intern... yes, before graduating from university.

I have respect for anyone working hard to make his life better. Willing to move country and work in a place with added language barrier and what not else? Deserves respect, no matter what the education level is... if anything is it even harder for less educated people. Yes, I would include illegal immigrants working as fruit pickers or what not in that. I cant blame them for trying to get a better life - and I feel sad for them getting pimped out like they do. You asked for any documentary... here is one on the tomato business in Italy. (It includes a lot more issues as label fraud and deception... but around min 3 can you see a guy who got beaten up by the pimps when he tried to work without paying them...) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChkpkXAlIyw

I think the point is that I dont agree that a beggar is really "working" in my sense of the word...
Can we stay on point here? Fruit pickers are not the same as what we currently see going on in Basel. Illegal immigrants working to improve their life is not the same thing as those who come into a wealthy village and harass the people living there to give them money & then trash the city wherever they choose to stay.
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  #91  
Old 03.05.2021, 16:57
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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Can we stay on point here? Fruit pickers are not the same as what we currently see going on in Basel. Illegal immigrants working to improve their life is not the same thing as those who come into a wealthy village and harass the people living there to give them money & then trash the city wherever they choose to stay.
Sure, so lets stay on topic: the topic is the city of Basel doing something with homeless. Not beggars, not criminals, not Roma or anything else...
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Old 03.05.2021, 17:32
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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Sure, so lets stay on topic: the topic is the city of Basel doing something with homeless. Not beggars, not criminals, not Roma or anything else...
There aren't very many homeless people living in Basel as there is adequate support for them. Perhaps they may be "homeless" because they do not have a permanent home, but they are certainly not regularly staying on the street like what you see in my home country. Our social system is very good - as well as access to mental health services.

There is a man that chooses to be homeless just as you exit the train station, he is actually a very sweet & I worry about him often in cold weather. We once brought him a small bottle of wine and he refused and said he doesn't drink alcohol. Perhaps he has a deal with the authorities and they leave him alone, it is clear that he is very mentally ill & I guess he wants to be where he is as I know many have tried to help him.
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Old 03.05.2021, 17:45
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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There aren't very many homeless people living in Basel as there is adequate support for them.
Let me explain you that adequate support real quick: Sleeping in a shelter isnt free. It costs 7.50 CHF for a local Swiss and 40CHF per night for non-residents (!!!). If those non-residents, say a roma with a romanian or hungarian passport, cannot afford those 40 CHF can Switzerland legally deport him. Guess who is not sleeping in those shelters even when its snowing outside? So most people without Swiss passport will fall entirely through the support network. Which is probably why the city now tries to send them home with a free ticket...

https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/obda...hlosen-umgehen
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  #94  
Old 03.05.2021, 18:28
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

How are the Roma beggars not homeless? They are sleeping in the parks and also at a car park in Heuwagge. Last time I was walking in Solitude Park they were sleeping there.

I went into town today and witnessed Mövenpick restaurant in Marktplatz losing custom because of a beggar pestering diners at the tables (and one old guy really shouted at him before getting up and leaving with his wife). The 2 women who were in Breite are now working the tram platforms at Bankverein. There didn't seem to be as many at Clara which surprised me given how busy it was. Maybe people there have stopped giving them money which would be a good thing.
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  #95  
Old 03.05.2021, 18:34
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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This is your opinion. I think it is the opposite, assuming we are talking about gypsies, not people in general.



I might be living too short to witness the change between generations and I truly hope this is happening. Governments pour millions to drag them out of poverty. I have seen my home country government providing them subsidised housing, free schools etc. However they moved in, trashed the place, stoped paying bills (which are reduced anyway) and here we go, another ghetto just closer to the city center. During that operation probably 1 out of 100 families changed the lifestyle and appreciated the help. I doubt it was worth spending so much money, ruining neighbourhood etc.

Maybe I am just too old to believe in santa claus, but I just can't have my head around how to change such community (Lunik IX, Slovakia). Where do you even start?
This is the situation in a couple of places in CZ, too. Generations on never ending unemployment support only and unwilling to get out of it. We don't have the 2yr limit of unemployment support. Those who want to work are often marginalized and sanctioned by their own community. The apartments are free and get destroyed in series. We had families that destroyed their homes, burned them and were given promptly a new place, all together 18 in a sequence, within 20 years. Those kind of double standards create a lot of hostility and low acceptance within the society. There is another enabling measure - child subsidies are so high due to general low birth rate and remaining post socialist support, that there are generations with 7-10 kids who make more than the average salary only on child subsidies, so never work. The governments wanted to deal with the phenomena through integration programs but were threatened by EU since the EU saw it as mishandling. The child centered, special schools with trained teachers and low kid number per adult got closed, as it wasn't inclusive enough. Now kids are asjed to come to regular school and they do not attend.

What does help - besmegemis, are cops of their own ethnic background.

So the beggars I see here, are extremely well organized, they are professionals. I do not think they are homeless, but believe that this "we'll pay your way home" from the government could help the people who might be trafficked by the bosses.
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  #96  
Old 03.05.2021, 19:14
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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How are the Roma beggars not homeless? They are sleeping in the parks and also at a car park in Heuwagge. Last time I was walking in Solitude Park they were sleeping there.
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So the beggars I see here, are extremely well organized, they are professionals. I do not think they are homeless, but believe that this "we'll pay your way home" from the government could help the people who might be trafficked by the bosses.
Yes, I also think the bosses are well organised professionals.

According to Britannica, "Large numbers live in Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Slovenia, the Czech and Slovak republics, and Hungary."

Of these, Bulgaria, Croatia, the Czech Republic, Hungary Romania, Slovakia, and Slovenia are in the EU, so citizens of those countries can travel into Switzerland freely, as the Swiss can, too, to the EU. The beggars we see may be homeless, that's possible, but they may well be at home in their home country, and only temporarily here in Switzerland. Officially on holiday. In reality bussed in and pimped to beg.

Even under very poor conditions, a person may choose to remain with the group, and beg until it is time to be put back on the bus back home, than to run away and risk losing their entire family and clan connections.

I imagine that if I'd had little education, and had been made or conned into being part of a scheme, in reverse, and were then set down somewhere in one of those countries, where I didn't speak the language and knew very little of how things worked, and had been warned that the police were dangerous and would beat up anyone who couldn't prove their identity (and those telling me this had taken my passport) and that if they caught me I would never be allowed to go home again, and that anyway, going to the homeless shelter for the night cost more than I paid in groceries for a week back home, and that I had a duty to return to the family bearing money, I might lack the knowledge, the hope, the stamina and most of all the courage to defect.
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Old 03.05.2021, 19:20
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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Sure, so lets stay on topic: the topic is the city of Basel doing something with homeless. Not beggars, not criminals, not Roma or anything else...
Stupid question about mental health. What happens in CH if oneself has something funny going on inside the head and end up homeless? Still paying 7.50 a night for the shelter or interned in some institution up in Jura?

My guess (feel free to throw tomatoes and tell me I'm so damned wrong) is that a lot of people with problems is kept inside a safe place. This implies homeless on the street are fine, lucid and able to do whatever they want. But this is pure speculation, anyone knows something for real?
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Old 03.05.2021, 20:20
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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This is the situation in a couple of places in CZ, too. Generations on never ending unemployment support only and unwilling to get out of it. We don't have the 2yr limit of unemployment support. Those who want to work are often marginalized and sanctioned by their own community. The apartments are free and get destroyed in series. We had families that destroyed their homes, burned them and were given promptly a new place, all together 18 in a sequence, within 20 years. Those kind of double standards create a lot of hostility and low acceptance within the society. There is another enabling measure - child subsidies are so high due to general low birth rate and remaining post socialist support, that there are generations with 7-10 kids who make more than the average salary only on child subsidies, so never work. The governments wanted to deal with the phenomena through integration programs but were threatened by EU since the EU saw it as mishandling. The child centered, special schools with trained teachers and low kid number per adult got closed, as it wasn't inclusive enough. Now kids are asjed to come to regular school and they do not attend.

What does help - besmegemis, are cops of their own ethnic background.

So the beggars I see here, are extremely well organized, they are professionals. I do not think they are homeless, but believe that this "we'll pay your way home" from the government could help the people who might be trafficked by the bosses.
I am sure all of this is true. However, there is a flipside to this: I work in IT. When I was working in the EU were at least half of my colleagues Eastern European. I recognized that the gypsie topic returned over and over again to our lunch discussions, particularly when talking to Hungarian and Romanian colleagues. I am sure that the negative first hand experiences they told me about were all true.

However, I found it interesting how the topic kept on popping up... so I asked. Every time they had just read something in their main media from back home. Maybe its because I am German and because of the specific history of my country... but when two of the most corrupt countries in the EU constantly put negative stuff on their minorities into the news... my alarm bells go off and I call bullshit.

I get the impression it might be more than just a bit of finger pointing and scapegoating - it gives the common man an enemy to talk about. Pointing out how "those guys" waste all the money is a nice distraction of the corruption of Orban and co... the irony is that it is those governments job to sort out the integration problems instead of spreading more hate. But again, thats probably just me...
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Old 03.05.2021, 20:39
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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Stupid question about mental health. What happens in CH if oneself has something funny going on inside the head and end up homeless? Still paying 7.50 a night for the shelter or interned in some institution up in Jura?

My guess (feel free to throw tomatoes and tell me I'm so damned wrong) is that a lot of people with problems is kept inside a safe place. This implies homeless on the street are fine, lucid and able to do whatever they want. But this is pure speculation, anyone knows something for real?
I bet this depends on your home canton and probably even more on your home gemeinde. I remember a couple of scandals about the local "KESB" - the government office responsible for that. There seem to be different standards and some cantons are restrictive others rather happy to declare you in need of mental health (and taking significant amounts of your freedom and civil liberties away in the process...). Difficult topic...
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Old 03.05.2021, 21:18
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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I am sure all of this is true. However, there is a flipside to this: I work in IT. When I was working in the EU were at least half of my colleagues Eastern European. I recognized that the gypsie topic returned over and over again to our lunch discussions, particularly when talking to Hungarian and Romanian colleagues. I am sure that the negative first hand experiences they told me about were all true.

However, I found it interesting how the topic kept on popping up... so I asked. Every time they had just read something in their main media from back home. Maybe its because I am German and because of the specific history of my country... but when two of the most corrupt countries in the EU constantly put negative stuff on their minorities into the news... my alarm bells go off and I call bullshit.

I get the impression it might be more than just a bit of finger pointing and scapegoating - it gives the common man an enemy to talk about. Pointing out how "those guys" waste all the money is a nice distraction of the corruption of Orban and co... the irony is that it is those governments job to sort out the integration problems instead of spreading more hate. But again, thats probably just me...
Not this Romanian. And yes, I admit many of my compatriots are openly racist. Things have changed a lot lately though, there are huge efforts not visible to Western Europe, but we're on a good path re.integration Roma. I think. I hope.
Unfortunately Roma people are an easy scapegoat everywhere in Eastern Europe. Jews, Roma, they're the classic "Others". Not nearly as much as before but you'll still hear some comments I'm personally embarrassed about. And the news are not necessarily about them or if they are, they're not with that intention. I think a lot of people are trying to help. And btw..........media talks (only) about corruption back home. It's the main thing over there.

Last edited by greenmount; 04.05.2021 at 00:49. Reason: grammar etc
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