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  #121  
Old 04.05.2021, 11:17
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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Reality check here for the Orban bashers.
Yeah damn those 'Orban bashers'... he's actually a great guy and known for being a progressive and democratic leader... right?
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  #122  
Old 04.05.2021, 11:26
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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I think this is a question of sampling and perspective.

If you were to go for a drive around Chicago's south side or the uglier parts of Detroit and see some of the terrible conditions under which people live there, and also some of the attitudes that come with that, it would still be wrong to spin that into pronouncements on African Americans in general and say they are a depraved backward people with no ambitions or desire to improve their situation, but just live off handouts while trashing and graffitiing their own neighborhoods.

Such a conclusion would be outrageous.

But somehow it's okay to say the same about gypsies, basing it on some of the worst examples.
For slow people in the last row (me), what are the similarities?
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  #123  
Old 04.05.2021, 11:31
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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I bet this depends on your home canton and probably even more on your home gemeinde. I remember a couple of scandals about the local "KESB" - the government office responsible for that. There seem to be different standards and some cantons are restrictive others rather happy to declare you in need of mental health (and taking significant amounts of your freedom and civil liberties away in the process...). Difficult topic...
So, begging on the street is a delicate balancing act. Being distressed enough to ask for money, but not too distressed to lose freedoms, children and get interned in a mental institution, etc.
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  #124  
Old 04.05.2021, 12:09
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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These people need jobs, education.
According to those interviewed by TeleBasel, they're not interested in such things. They viewed working for someone outside the family as a form of slavery. And the laws of the "gentiles" don't apply to them.

The best solution to stopping organised begging is to make it unprofitable. Perhaps by educating the general populace that giving to beggars is a bad thing. At the same time, improving services for people who are in need so no one need to beg. (There's nothing to stop you offering food, drink or other goods to people who are in need.

There is an issue that the traditional work that travelling families would do is no longer available.

Frankly, it wouldn't bother me if their way of life were to disappear. Ways of life do change and do disappear. I'm sure our way of life won't be around forever!
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  #125  
Old 04.05.2021, 12:38
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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There is an issue that the traditional work that travelling families would do is no longer available.

Frankly, it wouldn't bother me if their way of life were to disappear. Ways of life do change and do disappear. I'm sure our way of life won't be around forever!
THIS.

Many jobs may have been taken by other workers due to open (within EU) and semi-open borders (CH). Today, any EU citizen is free to take any job almost anywhere within the Schengen zone. For 3r country citizens is a but more complicate but possible. Maybe, we all became traveling people and the original ones became even less competitive in economical terms.
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  #126  
Old 04.05.2021, 12:45
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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Reality check here for the Orban bashers.

A lot of the anti Roma rhetoric, at least on a political level, is coming from the right-wing Jobbik party. They are actually friends with the German Greens and get coaching and campaign advice from them. Now these friends of the German Greens like to blame the Roma for every evil under the sun. Yes even Orban is supposedly a Roma in their eyes and they often caricature him in Roma contexts. They claim his grandmother had a Gypsy sounding name, therefore he must be a thief. What more proof do you need?

Actually many Roma do support Orban, predominantly because his child-support policies make it easier for families with young children to buy houses rather than renting, by providing government backed mortgages and things. And strangely people who own stuff take more care of it than renters. And of course that makes the haters very angry.
The Jobbik party is on the rather extreme end of the right winged spectrum. Homophobia, open anti-semitism on a level thats pretty unique in Europe and indeed a lot of hate towards minorities most prominently Roma. In recent years they tried to become more something of an SVP-clone... still right winged populist but somehow reasonable enough that a non-neo-nazi could consider voting for them.

Not sure where you see the connection with the Green party, the only thing that Jobbik has in common with the political left is their hate for Orban. So yes, there were common anti-government protests of the entire opposition in Hungary... but calling that a connection is a bit far fetched.
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  #127  
Old 04.05.2021, 12:49
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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Not sure where you see the connection with the Green party, the only thing that Jobbik has in common with the political left is their hate for Orban. So yes, there were common anti-government protests of the entire opposition in Hungary... but calling that a connection is a bit far fetched.
They are sharing a platform with the Green Party, putting up joint candidates in every single electoral district.

The German Green party is basing some of its information on Orban on stuff they copied off the Jobbik website or pro-Jobbik newspapers.

but yeah, calling that a connection is far fetched.
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  #128  
Old 04.05.2021, 12:54
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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So, begging on the street is a delicate balancing act. Being distressed enough to ask for money, but not too distressed to lose freedoms, children and get interned in a mental institution, etc.
No, it really isn't a balancing act: We pay taxes for a social security net. People who really need something basic in Switzerland should get help from the government. Begging from tourists as a profession should be banned. End of story. It totally works in Zurich, so it could easily work in Basel. Thats the fastest way to get the professionals to leave... not by paying their trips home.
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  #129  
Old 04.05.2021, 12:55
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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No, it really isn't a balancing act: We pay taxes for a social security net. People who really need something basic in Switzerland should get help from the government. Begging from tourists as a profession should be banned. End of story. It totally works in Zurich, so it could easily work in Basel. Thats the fastest way to get the professionals to leave... not by paying their trips home.
Begging happens in Zurich too.
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  #130  
Old 04.05.2021, 12:57
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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They are sharing a platform with the Green Party, putting up joint candidates in every single electoral district.

The German Green party is basing some of its information on Orban on stuff they copied off the Jobbik website or pro-Jobbik newspapers.

but yeah, calling that a connection is far fetched.
Because thats the only way to fight Orban. A broad opposition. In the same way that the SP and the FDP quite regularly agree that the SVP ideas are rubbish and jointly fight some referendum... even though they cant agree on anything else and have very different reasons to fight the SVP.
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  #131  
Old 04.05.2021, 13:00
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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Begging happens in Zurich too.
When and where have you seen a gang of Romas in Zurich? If any beggar sits down on Bahnhofstrasse does it take less than 5 mins to have the Stapo removing him... The ban works. I havent seen the typical "woman with baby" or small kids with a McDonalds cup round here. In Luxembourg did the kids repeatedly try some fraud where they pretend to be collecting for a charity... never seen that in Zurich.

It wont stop a single local junky to ask for coins while walking through a station, but that's ok.
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  #132  
Old 04.05.2021, 13:03
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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Because thats the only way to fight Orban. A broad opposition.
Yes, a broad opposition that means leveraging neo-nazis into power.

What could possibly go wrong?
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  #133  
Old 04.05.2021, 13:04
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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If they come from Romania (and I don't know why we are assuming this) they probably don't come from Bukarest but from some economically depressed area that is many many hours from Bukarest on a rickety bus.
Bukarest is what the article I summarised mentions as the preferred destination. Feel free to take that up with the Travelpoint agency.
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These days you would furthermore probably need a PCR test to fly and this would set you back 150 CHF or more. I 'm not even sure if you can get one if you're here illegally.
They do indeed, but they manage to get one for less, see my first post in the thread.
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  #134  
Old 04.05.2021, 13:09
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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Because thats the only way to fight Orban. A broad opposition. In the same way that the SP and the FDP quite regularly agree that the SVP ideas are rubbish and jointly fight some referendum... even though they cant agree on anything else and have very different reasons to fight the SVP.
To be quite honest, as someone with natural FDP inclinations I'd rather they team up against the SP than the SVP. I find the SVP rather distasteful at times, but still rather them than socialists.
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  #135  
Old 04.05.2021, 13:11
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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Yes, a broad opposition that means leveraging neo-nazis into power.

What could possibly go wrong?
They claim to be reformed, but I'd be very careful dealing with any political party who has, or has ever had a "paramilitary wing".
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  #136  
Old 04.05.2021, 13:20
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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No, it really isn't a balancing act: We pay taxes for a social security net. People who really need something basic in Switzerland should get help from the government. Begging from tourists as a profession should be banned. End of story. It totally works in Zurich, so it could easily work in Basel. Thats the fastest way to get the professionals to leave... not by paying their trips home.
It is not?

Or, just another difference among cantons? Even the cool French speaking cantons have banned begging on the streets

And, maybe the fines should be aimed at the people giving money to beggars. 1-2% annual brutto income and give that money to people in need.
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  #137  
Old 04.05.2021, 13:53
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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THIS.

Many jobs may have been taken by other workers due to open (within EU) and semi-open borders (CH). Today, any EU citizen is free to take any job almost anywhere within the Schengen zone. For 3r country citizens is a but more complicate but possible. Maybe, we all became traveling people and the original ones became even less competitive in economical terms.
I'm not sure I get your drift with EU workers. It's not the same as travelling people. EU citizens are free to take up any job somebody offers them. It's always up to the employer. Being an EU citizen makes it a bit easier from an admin point of view.
Some countries decided to grant each other the same rights and you're somehow unhappy because of that? Or maybe I don't get it. I don't see what one has with the other.
We may start a discussion about EU separately though.
I suspect some of the people who are homeless in Basel got strained here due to Covid-19 lockdown. There's this category too. There's the category of "sans papiers" too. I'm not sure this array of social problems are to be blamed on EU.

Last edited by greenmount; 04.05.2021 at 14:15.
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  #138  
Old 04.05.2021, 14:31
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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I'm not sure I get your drift with EU workers. It's not the same as travelling people. EU citizens are free to take up any job somebody offers them. It's always up to the employer. Being an EU citizen makes it a bit easier from an admin point of view.
Some countries decided to grant each other the same rights and you're somehow unhappy because of that? Or maybe I don't get it. I don't see what one has with the other.
We may start a discussion about EU separately though.
I suspect some of the people who are homeless in Basel got strained here due to Covid-19 lockdown. There's this category too. There's the category of "sans papiers" too. I'm not sure this array of social problems are to be blamed on EU.
I'm praising the EU, maybe even CH. Mobility has helped people.

What I've heard around the local greens farm is that temporary jobs are now taken by more formal workers. Long term relationships have developed. Local farm is now mostly operated by Portuguese. They only come when there's work, and everyone wins. When there's no job they go back to Portugal to be close to family, and don't waste money in CH by paying high prices for everything.

If you were a farmer and had to choose between someone you have hired the last 10 years for the season (just use whatsapp), the homeless or sans papiers, what would you do? Even the job of picking tomatoes in a greenhouse is now taken by someone more formal. Look at any construction site, everyone's operating a machine. Being able to carry heavy stuff is not enough. The legal income sources for traveling people are dying (at least in CH), the lifestyle may be disappearing as NotAllThere commented.

Back to Basel, they lifted a ban on begging on the streets last Summer and number of people begging has increased.
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  #139  
Old 04.05.2021, 14:36
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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I'm praising the EU, maybe even CH. Mobility has helped people.

What I've heard around the local greens farm is that temporary jobs are now taken by more formal workers. Long term relationships have developed. Local farm is now mostly operated by Portuguese. They only come when there's work, and everyone wins. When there's no job they go back to Portugal to be close to family, and don't waste money in CH by paying high prices for everything.

If you were a farmer and had to choose between someone you have hired the last 10 years for the season (just use whatsapp), the homeless or sans papiers, what would you do? Even the job of picking tomatoes in a greenhouse is now taken by someone more formal. The legal income sources for traveling people are dying (at least in CH), the lifestyle is disappearing as NotAllThere commented.

Back to Basel, they lifted a ban on begging on the streets last Summer and number of people begging has increased.
Those to whom NotAllThere was referring to are not here for that... They're "professional" beggars. What some Portuguese do here in CH, some people from Romania, Poland or other EU countries do somewhere else. They're seasonal workers. I don't think they have less rights to do so than the Portuguese. They're not "the travelling" people, although maybe some are of Roma ethnic origins. There're a lot of confusions between some terms and I got tired to explain them.
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  #140  
Old 04.05.2021, 14:42
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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Those to whom NotAllThere was referring to are not here for that... They're "professional" beggars.
I've talked to them. As rice eating student (meat once a week) I was asked money by a couple carrying a baby when coming out of the bancomat and unlocking my bike from a tree.

The guy was muscular, plump cheeks, quite probably had a diet healthier than mine and asked money because had not eaten in several days. I remembered I ate meat once a week, got triggered and went nuclear on them in native language. They ran away.
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