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  #141  
Old 04.05.2021, 14:31
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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I'm not sure I get your drift with EU workers. It's not the same as travelling people. EU citizens are free to take up any job somebody offers them. It's always up to the employer. Being an EU citizen makes it a bit easier from an admin point of view.
Some countries decided to grant each other the same rights and you're somehow unhappy because of that? Or maybe I don't get it. I don't see what one has with the other.
We may start a discussion about EU separately though.
I suspect some of the people who are homeless in Basel got strained here due to Covid-19 lockdown. There's this category too. There's the category of "sans papiers" too. I'm not sure this array of social problems are to be blamed on EU.
I'm praising the EU, maybe even CH. Mobility has helped people.

What I've heard around the local greens farm is that temporary jobs are now taken by more formal workers. Long term relationships have developed. Local farm is now mostly operated by Portuguese. They only come when there's work, and everyone wins. When there's no job they go back to Portugal to be close to family, and don't waste money in CH by paying high prices for everything.

If you were a farmer and had to choose between someone you have hired the last 10 years for the season (just use whatsapp), the homeless or sans papiers, what would you do? Even the job of picking tomatoes in a greenhouse is now taken by someone more formal. Look at any construction site, everyone's operating a machine. Being able to carry heavy stuff is not enough. The legal income sources for traveling people are dying (at least in CH), the lifestyle may be disappearing as NotAllThere commented.

Back to Basel, they lifted a ban on begging on the streets last Summer and number of people begging has increased.
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  #142  
Old 04.05.2021, 14:36
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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I'm praising the EU, maybe even CH. Mobility has helped people.

What I've heard around the local greens farm is that temporary jobs are now taken by more formal workers. Long term relationships have developed. Local farm is now mostly operated by Portuguese. They only come when there's work, and everyone wins. When there's no job they go back to Portugal to be close to family, and don't waste money in CH by paying high prices for everything.

If you were a farmer and had to choose between someone you have hired the last 10 years for the season (just use whatsapp), the homeless or sans papiers, what would you do? Even the job of picking tomatoes in a greenhouse is now taken by someone more formal. The legal income sources for traveling people are dying (at least in CH), the lifestyle is disappearing as NotAllThere commented.

Back to Basel, they lifted a ban on begging on the streets last Summer and number of people begging has increased.
Those to whom NotAllThere was referring to are not here for that... They're "professional" beggars. What some Portuguese do here in CH, some people from Romania, Poland or other EU countries do somewhere else. They're seasonal workers. I don't think they have less rights to do so than the Portuguese. They're not "the travelling" people, although maybe some are of Roma ethnic origins. There're a lot of confusions between some terms and I got tired to explain them.
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  #143  
Old 04.05.2021, 14:42
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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Those to whom NotAllThere was referring to are not here for that... They're "professional" beggars.
I've talked to them. As rice eating student (meat once a week) I was asked money by a couple carrying a baby when coming out of the bancomat and unlocking my bike from a tree.

The guy was muscular, plump cheeks, quite probably had a diet healthier than mine and asked money because had not eaten in several days. I remembered I ate meat once a week, got triggered and went nuclear on them in native language. They ran away.
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  #144  
Old 04.05.2021, 14:48
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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Those to whom NotAllThere was referring to are not here for that... They're "professional" beggars.
I think his point is that the travelling people used to fill in labour shortages... imagine tomato harvest in Italy in June, Swiss farms in July, Bordeaux grapes in September... I just dont think thats the reality of the past.

If I remember correctly were the Romas kicked out of the larger cities already in the middle ages and mostly served the many different European powers in the military as cheap mercenaries... till the industrialized armies of the 20th century made them redundant. That means they had by now about a century of time - or three generations - to come up with a new idea what to do. For many that has worked. For many it did not.
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  #145  
Old 04.05.2021, 14:59
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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I think his point is that the travelling people used to fill in labour shortages... imagine tomato harvest in Italy in June, Swiss farms in July, Bordeaux grapes in September... I just dont think thats the reality of the past.
Maybe in some years we will have robots that are sufficiently tactile to handle many farm tasks but right now a surprising amount of work in food production is still done the old fashioned way.
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  #146  
Old 04.05.2021, 15:02
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

Bottom line is> aggressive, organised/"professional" begging should be banned. Bans function. As Treverus pointed out, that won't stop the local junkies or the odd guy here and there or whatever, but it would stop the gangs.
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  #147  
Old 04.05.2021, 15:15
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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Maybe in some years we will have robots that are sufficiently tactile to handle many farm tasks but right now a surprising amount of work in food production is still done the old fashioned way.
Ah, you mean by abusing African slaves "illegal immigrants" to produce at ridiculously low costs in Spain, southern Italy or Greece? True.
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  #148  
Old 04.05.2021, 17:26
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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Ah, you mean by abusing African slaves "illegal immigrants" to produce at ridiculously low costs in Spain, southern Italy or Greece? True.
There are a lot of discussions about seasonal workers lately and how to protect their rights. A lot of countries "discovered" how dependent on them they are in some sectors. I think I've read somewhere that Spain is making some steps toward granting workers from Africa same rights re.social contributions, health insurance etc as EU.
But we digress.

Last edited by greenmount; 04.05.2021 at 17:58.
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  #149  
Old 04.05.2021, 20:57
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

Digress for sure. This thread is about the ethics of paying plane tickets to get rid. Would be interesting to discuss this.
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  #150  
Old 04.05.2021, 22:08
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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I wrote that I'm familiar with this and it's terrible, but if we want to stay on topic, organised begging is not going to help anyone. Neither the beggars, nor the communities.

This is what I call fake charity (I am guilty myself here, I admit). These people need jobs, education. Otherwise the problem will continue to pass onto the next generation. The West doesn't do anyone any favour by allowing professional beggars take up streets or parks. This must stop.
IMHO, obviously.
Amen. The maximum beggars get out of me is food. (Four donuts, last time... huh?!)
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  #151  
Old 04.05.2021, 22:25
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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When and where have you seen a gang of Romas in Zurich? If any beggar sits down on Bahnhofstrasse does it take less than 5 mins to have the Stapo removing him... The ban works. I havent seen the typical "woman with baby" or small kids with a McDonalds cup round here. In Luxembourg did the kids repeatedly try some fraud where they pretend to be collecting for a charity... never seen that in Zurich.
Roma-ish-looking families with kids, this spring, one at Central, one at Europaallee (at the end of the new pedestrian bridge). Again and again, beggars with crutches etc. on their own in trams, despite a clear ban in there. It does seem to be taking off in Zurich, too.

As for the one-way ticket back... tbh, if someone accepts, why not? Wouldn’t it be a case of a gift horse?

Greens and Jobbik, amogles: which Greens? German or Hungarian? If German: source, please? If Hungarian: I didn’t know they even existed. But of course there is such a thing as a greenish-brown niche, famously occupied by James Schwarzenbach in Switzerland, and recently discussed in Balthasar Glättli‘s „Die unheimlichen Ökologen“. (Paraphrasing the legendary „Die unheimlichen Patrioten“.) My blasé Western prejudices tempt me to speculate that niche might garner more votes in Hungary than classic red-green politics. Those who know more about it: please correct me if I‘m wrong.
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  #152  
Old 04.05.2021, 22:39
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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Bottom line is> aggressive, organised/"professional" begging should be banned. Bans function. As Treverus pointed out, that won't stop the local junkies or the odd guy here and there or whatever, but it would stop the gangs.
As mentioned, one problem was that Strasbourg upheld a banned beggar‘s objection to a fine in Geneva: https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politic...ggar-/46299040 The verdict seems to have left open the question of whether bans can be upheld even from a legal POV, let alone a practical one. If you cannot sanction a practice, how can you deter people from doing it? Then again, as the Romans said and as law students are still taught today: nulla poena sine lege, nulla lex sine iniuria. No punishment without a law, no law without an injustice (or injury). It is hard to argue that beggars are committing a particularly grave iniuria to the likes of us. Confronting the privileged with their privileges was widely acceptable in religious societies, see court jesters. What they‘re doing to their children: different question. But full of staggering pitfalls, as Kinder der Landstrasse shows. Speaking of which, anyone remember Ceaucescu‘s orphanages? I met a deeply damaged survivor once. Brrr.
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  #153  
Old 05.05.2021, 00:25
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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Ah, you mean by abusing African slaves "illegal immigrants" to produce at ridiculously low costs in Spain, southern Italy or Greece? True.
I've never been in favour of that.

We discussed it on other threads and you know it.
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  #154  
Old 05.05.2021, 00:28
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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As mentioned, one problem was that Strasbourg upheld a banned beggar‘s objection to a fine in Geneva: https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politic...ggar-/46299040 The verdict seems to have left open the question of whether bans can be upheld even from a legal POV, let alone a practical one. If you cannot sanction a practice, how can you deter people from doing it? Then again, as the Romans said and as law students are still taught today: nulla poena sine lege, nulla lex sine iniuria. No punishment without a law, no law without an injustice (or injury). It is hard to argue that beggars are committing a particularly grave iniuria to the likes of us. Confronting the privileged with their privileges was widely acceptable in religious societies, see court jesters. What they‘re doing to their children: different question. But full of staggering pitfalls, as Kinder der Landstrasse shows. Speaking of which, anyone remember Ceaucescu‘s orphanages? I met a deeply damaged survivor once. Brrr.
Good point.

Nobody is obliged to give anything to a beggar. Those who chose to do so are (in some cases) perpetuating an abusive system.

It's fine to want to the strong arm of the law to stretch out on our behalf and ban that.

But how many of the people who want that have no qualms buying stuff made by abusive slave labour in China.

Is it because its OK if we don't see it but wrong if we see it?
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  #155  
Old 05.05.2021, 01:05
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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But how many of the people who want that have no qualms buying stuff made by abusive slave labour in China.

Is it because its OK if we don't see it but wrong if we see it?
It's perfectly OK to be part of the system and criticize some parts of it. It's not a quest for purity or innocence. Putting attention to 1 wrong when there are 1 million other wrongs is not foolish. It's the only way to improve, one thing at a time.
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  #156  
Old 05.05.2021, 07:08
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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No punishment without a law, no law without an injustice (or injury). It is hard to argue that beggars are committing a particularly grave iniuria to the likes of us. Confronting the privileged with their privileges was widely acceptable in religious societies, see court jesters.
No, you're right and that's why this sort of discussions are always weird especially here and the internet is not the best place to debate it. On internet dehumanising entire categories of people is usually very quickly done. One case and then boom, all of them.

Anyway, I don't even know what the topic was about anymore because it started with the homeless in Basel being offered a voucher and a travel fare to any European destination and then the topic of gypsies and gypsy beggars popped up and the groups in Basel, so I don't know, if it's a recurrent problem there maybe it's not a bad thing they were offered this possibility instead of being fined for instance.

Bans function (I think) because the police has a legal backup to keep an eye on some street dynamics. As agreed, odd cases here and there but not gangs, not groups. Not a street or a park. It's possible in ZH so why not elsewhere.
More than that I literally have nothing to add, debating old cases might be useful in general but not in particular. Not for this specific issue or phenomenon. I see solutions only on long term tbh.

Btw, I don't think I've seen anywhere in Europe the homeless problem as in USA. And that was years ago. Not covid-19, not nothing. But backhome is an issue too lately because it's very easy to go down that route. One loses their job, then their home, families are broken and voila. It's not only the Roma, mind. It's normal people who used to have a normal life and life just hit them on the head. So if that happens where one wouldn't expect, what's to comment about marginalised categories. Nothing. I don't have any solutions.

Last edited by greenmount; 05.05.2021 at 07:33.
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  #157  
Old 05.05.2021, 08:49
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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Bottom line is> aggressive, organised/"professional" begging should be banned
One solution would be to make it illegal to approach people for money (which is often aggressive), or to call out while sitting at a beggars' pitch.

If the beggars - even the professional ones - were just sitting passively with their signs, it wouldn't be such a problem.
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  #158  
Old 05.05.2021, 18:25
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

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One solution would be to make it illegal to approach people for money (which is often aggressive), or to call out while sitting at a beggars' pitch.

If the beggars - even the professional ones - were just sitting passively with their signs, it wouldn't be such a problem.
It doesn't take aggressiveness to cause significant pressure.

Back in the day there used to be what looked like Andean/Indio bands in Zürich's tram. They'd hop on, play a tune or two, then one would walk the tram's length with an hat upside down in hand, asking for donations without speaking. The hat would only be moved towards the passengers (and enter their personal space) if they showed willingness to donate. In such a situation it's often very difficult for anybody with company to refuse to contribute even though there was zero aggressiveness.
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  #159  
Old 05.05.2021, 18:30
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

Every time I've been to Irchel Park or Josefwiese, I have been approached by beggars who look very similar to the gypsy types in other countries. Recently while bbq/picknicking at Josefwiese a friend offered our left overs, and the old lady graciously accepted and chowed down on everything we would offer. I honestly thought it was organized beggars.

As for the Swiss travellers, looks like they are moving on..mostly of them campers are gone now. I highly doubt they beg though. All brands new, gorgeous RVs, and amazing cars....they definitely live better than I do.
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Old 05.05.2021, 19:07
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Re: Basel offers homeless free one-way ticket to European destinations...

Looks like the Basel police are taking some action

Basel: 52 beggars checked (German)

https://www.polizei-schweiz.ch/basel...-kontrolliert/
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