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Old 18.05.2021, 12:51
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Re: How representative of Zürich is the NZZ [Neue Zürcher Zeitung]?

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I think these days NZZ is just about the only daily newspapers that is still readable . Not just in Switzerland but in the whole German speaking world .
Yes. I am not even fluent in Deutsch but recognize that.

Btw - the least difficult academic writing is American. German academic stuff has always been hard on a casual palate. I never thought NZZ to be overly academic though, it is simply dry. Maybe I was under the impression that it comes with the language.

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People read newspapers when EF exists? On EF we have the world's best journalists, researchers, epidemiologists etc etc
Yes. And the world's best goat shed-ers and humankind skeptics.

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Maybe. I'm maybe one of those guys Clemenceau had in mind when he said that if you're not a socialist when you're 20 you have no heart, but if you're still one when you're 40 ....
...I think that's called midlife crisis.

I will stick to what I wrote earlier. NZZ is good, it publishes stuff that is still marginalized. It would be suspitious if I liked it all and if it was liked for all it publishes.

We got www.courrierinternational.com , it's French and it is a bit different. I usually like their ratio of opinion - data.
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  #62  
Old 18.05.2021, 12:58
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Re: How representative of Zürich is the NZZ [Neue Zürcher Zeitung]?

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Spiegel used to be good. But they've gone downhill a long time ago. The Reloutius affair didn't really teach them the lesson it should have taught them. Plenty of people there in the senior departments who must have known exactly what was going on. If they had wanted to rebuild their credibility, heads should have rolled there and then. But they didn't.

Maybe symptomatic of German journalism as a whole. Which brings me back to why I like the NZZ. It managed to keep sufficient distance between itself and the German mess.
Spiegel, and particularly Spiegel Online, are pretty bad. Many stories lack relevant facts which then then cover up with an ideological undertone. Their recent story on how German real estate prices are too high for many people also in the middle class to buy property are a thinly veiled call for inheritance tax. Agree on Reloutius.

Don't see a general "German mess" though, let alone how this distinguishes NZZ.
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  #63  
Old 18.05.2021, 18:38
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Re: How representative of Zürich is the NZZ [Neue Zürcher Zeitung]?

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I'm not sure "elitist" is the word though. Two tiers? It starts early. I'm thinking of "Begafö" here, the "gifted education" lessons. Kids who show interest, special talents or abilities are stimulated accordingly. It is not a bad thing as long as the system aims to offer a higher general level of education. As a parent I'm rather grateful. I'm not sure how's that affecting class dynamics though, but teachers here are very careful with these sorts of things, in my experience. There are different expectations according to individual abilities, but this does not seem to segregate kids. So in that sense it is "egalitarian" IMO.
I do agree! Aujourd‘hui was asking about the egalitarian education system, see below. My use of „elitist“ was ironic. Apologies for not making that clearer. People differ in so many ways, and I‘m grateful too for BF and so on. However, in some cases, Universikum (a city programme) and skipping classes may create more problems than they solve. That spells N E R D. If I may be very snide, it seems to do so particularly for the children of SP members who firmly expect their moderately gifted offspring to get into Gymi, and will lament at every Kindergeburtstag or Elternabend how the evil elitists are keeping the Gymiquote artificially low on purpose - putting pressure on their poor kids. I dunno that teacher’s politics, but she was friends with one of the SP mothers. Anyway, „top of the class“ was politically incorrect to her ears, though objectively and measurably true - and the whole class knew it, and third parties in the class did not hesitate to tell the above-mentioned poor kids so in the teacher‘s absence. I don’t believe it helps anybody if teachers are in denial of their pupil’s social realities. Not even the teacher’s pets. Perhaps those least of all. Admittedly, most teachers are better. Sorry for venting!

Speaking of elitism, quote by Aujourd‘hui, post nr. 47(?):

„... curious about the attitudes around "elite"ness in this (German-speaking part of) Swiss culture, no doubt a complex topic, e.g., how old/new/foreign elites perceive one another; to what extent "elite"ness is defined here in terms of wealth; how much or how little social mobility figures into the dreams of young people amid an education system that seems to honor equality, support all professional paths, and eschew elitism.“

This question is the subject of ongoing research in Project Obelis at Uni Lausanne. What they do (in English): https://www.unil.ch/obelis/en/home/m...servatory.html It produces articles like this one (in German), which I found fascinating: https://www.socialchangeswitzerland.ch/?p=333 For the non-German speakers, it mentions the decline and fall of the previously discussed Filz. Economic elites often come from abroad these days, with tenuous connections to the country. Which is one reason for the rise of the SVP among political elites. Same world, two diverging stories.

When I read the NZZ as a teen in the 80s, there was probably a lot I didn’t get. But in my memory, the tone was much more restrained than it is now. Amogles obviously sensed this too in his post that mentioned „as if written by a university professor with a hangover“. You‘d never have caught grown men bashing Greta back then. Because there were no Gretas to challenge them. There was the Club of Rome. But almost no women. And certainly nobody who hadn’t climbed a long and steep ladder rung by rung: the so-called Ochsentour, which still included being an officer in the military back then. (That fascinating article discusses the percentages of military officers among the different elites too.) The change of tone makes sense. In order to behave like a gentleman, it helps to be relaxed and confident. Who still feels that way? Everybody‘s position is threatened on some level. There is a lot of fear about the future - for the planet, the economy, the nation, what have you. There is hardly anyone who is a member of several elite groups. Instead, as the article shows nicely, the economic/political/scientific elites are drifting apart, and often offering opposing interpretations of world events. Sometimes we get to vote on whose version we believe. Sometimes the more progressive economic elites buy into the narrative of the scientific elites, as in the case of the CO2 law.

The NZZ‘s core constituency is probably the economic elite, and the political one in the FDP region. The older of those guys still remember what it was like to rule the roost. The loss of the Filz must be hard to stomach for some of them. Still, as long as the backlash „only“ comes from the crustiest newspaper on the block and not from the embodiment of the political elite via Twitter, I ain‘t complaining.

Duty calls -
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  #64  
Old 18.05.2021, 22:31
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Re: How representative of Zürich is the NZZ [Neue Zürcher Zeitung]?

It is always fun to look up stuff in the Historisches Lexikon der Schweiz. Here‘s the entry on the NZZ: https://hls-dhs-dss.ch/de/articles/048585/2015-04-10/ and on elites: https://hls-dhs-dss.ch/de/articles/0...nimBundesstaat
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Old 22.05.2021, 13:12
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Re: How representative of Zürich is the NZZ [Neue Zürcher Zeitung]?

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Speaking of elitism, quote by Aujourd‘hui, post nr. 47(?):

„... curious about the attitudes around "elite"ness in this (German-speaking part of) Swiss culture, no doubt a complex topic, e.g., how old/new/foreign elites perceive one another; to what extent "elite"ness is defined here in terms of wealth; how much or how little social mobility figures into the dreams of young people amid an education system that seems to honor equality, support all professional paths, and eschew elitism.“

This question is the subject of ongoing research in Project Obelis at Uni Lausanne. What they do (in English): https://www.unil.ch/obelis/en/home/m...servatory.html It produces articles like this one (in German), which I found fascinating: https://www.socialchangeswitzerland.ch/?p=333 For the non-German speakers, it mentions the decline and fall of the previously discussed Filz. Economic elites often come from abroad these days, with tenuous connections to the country. Which is one reason for the rise of the SVP among political elites. Same world, two diverging stories.
I took the time to read this article, a rich yet succinct overview of the shifts that have been taking place, and enjoyed learning the word "Entflechtung" used to characterize the divergence as you say or "unbraiding" of the elites in various arenas. Social-historical background like this is helpful to me for contextualizing phenomena like the Thiam affair, and as a N E R D myself I am excited by this OBELIS research project.

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It is always fun to look up stuff in the Historisches Lexikon der Schweiz. Here‘s the entry on the NZZ: https://hls-dhs-dss.ch/de/articles/048585/2015-04-10/ and on elites: https://hls-dhs-dss.ch/de/articles/0...nimBundesstaat
Historisches Lexikon der Schweiz -- another great resource new to me. Thank you for these and above links!

In case anyone shares an interest in the issue of social mobility I asked about above, I've since found a 2020 World Economic Forum report comparing social mobility across the globe that assigned Switzerland 7th place:

http://www3.weforum.org/docs/Global_...ity_Report.pdf

Ranked list of countries is on page 7, but the individual country profiles starting on p. 37 are far more informative, and more thought-provoking than the rankings themselves might be the data categories used to build an overall picture of a country's social mobility.
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Old 22.05.2021, 13:37
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Re: How representative of Zürich is the NZZ [Neue Zürcher Zeitung]?

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I took the time to read this article, a rich yet succinct overview of the shifts that have been taking place, and enjoyed learning the word "Entflechtung" used to characterize the divergence as you say or "unbraiding" of the elites in various arenas. Social-historical background like this is helpful to me for contextualizing phenomena like the Thiam affair, and as a N E R D myself I am excited by this OBELIS research project.



Historisches Lexikon der Schweiz -- another great resource new to me. Thank you for these and above links!

In case anyone shares an interest in the issue of social mobility I asked about above, I've since found a 2020 World Economic Forum report comparing social mobility across the globe that assigned Switzerland 7th place:

http://www3.weforum.org/docs/Global_...ity_Report.pdf

Ranked list of countries is on page 7, but the individual country profiles starting on p. 37 are far more informative, and more thought-provoking than the rankings themselves might be the data categories used to build an overall picture of a country's social mobility.
Is this your area of professional research? The questions you ask do sound like surveys and are quite methodical, systematic.

That's great data: Scandinavia acing social mobility is no surprise, kudos to them. Denmark just said major NO to refugees, even curently residing in their country, they labeled Syria "safe" and are returning them. CZ ranking before the UK ans USA.. wowza.
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Old 22.05.2021, 14:03
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Re: How representative of Zürich is the NZZ [Neue Zürcher Zeitung]?

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Is this your area of professional research? The questions you ask do sound like surveys and are quite methodical, systematic.

That's great data: Scandinavia acing social mobility is no surprise, kudos to them. Denmark just said major NO to refugees, even curently residing in their country, they labeled Syria "safe" and are returning them. CZ ranking before the UK ans USA.. wowza.
Yes, I do question these measures of social mobility -- at least when deployed as rankings -- given great differences in immigrant percentages, in existing extent of socioeconomic equality or inequality, and the fact of uneven development, not really adjusted for. Nothing connected to my professional background, just a broad humanistic interest (in what makes a good society and so on) deepened by having lived in a few different places.
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Old 22.05.2021, 20:13
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Re: How representative of Zürich is the NZZ [Neue Zürcher Zeitung]?

Several people in my social and professional circle have cancelled their NZZ subscriptions since the whole covid thing (including me). I work in data science and it's been... interesting and bizarre. Take that with a grain of salt. My Swiss in-laws are not terribly educated or scientific, in fact they're anti-vaxxers, but they also don't like NZZ anymore, they say it's gone off the deep end into trump-like fake news. Nobody thinks Tagi is perfect, in fact, it has an array of recycled articles from english papers, including in the entertainment section. I do however seem to talk to more and more people (errr, typing or video conferencing) subscribing to German newspapers because they feel like Switzerland has lost its grip on reality in the last year. YMMV.
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Old 22.05.2021, 21:22
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Re: How representative of Zürich is the NZZ [Neue Zürcher Zeitung]?

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they also don't like NZZ anymore, they say it's gone off the deep end into trump-like fake news
What are you talking about? Their commentary section has been strange at times regarding Covid, but the news reporting has always been factual and I think they had some great deep stories on the hospital situation for example.
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Old 22.05.2021, 21:48
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Re: How representative of Zürich is the NZZ [Neue Zürcher Zeitung]?

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http://www3.weforum.org/docs/Global_...ity_Report.pdf

Ranked list of countries is on page 7, but the individual country profiles starting on p. 37 are far more informative, and more thought-provoking than the rankings themselves might be the data categories used to build an overall picture of a country's social mobility.
Thanks! Inclusive education does not seem to be our forte here. I‘ve always wondered how fair it is to compare such a diverse country to places where everybody speaks one language and there are hardly any immigrants. But we could certainly do better. It took a private Gymi in Zurich to come up with this kind of thing: https://chagall.ch/ (In the meantime, some public ones have started similar programmes. Some of them depend heavily on volunteers.)

What was odd about the NZZ Covid comments? Haven‘t read the alte Tante since cafés were closed.

And yes, some German newspaper subscriptions around here, too.

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Old 22.05.2021, 22:43
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Re: How representative of Zürich is the NZZ [Neue Zürcher Zeitung]?

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What are you talking about? Their commentary section has been strange at times regarding Covid, but the news reporting has always been factual and I think they had some great deep stories on the hospital situation for example.
I suppose we'll have to disagree on the factual accuracy of the reporting. I have had trouble with the reporting in Switzerland in general. Seems to be more about not making waves and adding spin. I cancelled my subscription in December 2020 after too many factually incorrect articles citing one person.

The opinion pieces are a nightmare. They don't have any basis for their opinions. I'm used to opinion pieces at least having some rationale to back up their opinions. I feel like the articles are "This is so because I think it is so and I have a lot of money-- so I'm right." Where the reasoning for the opinion?
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Old 22.05.2021, 23:15
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Re: How representative of Zürich is the NZZ [Neue Zürcher Zeitung]?

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I suppose we'll have to disagree on the factual accuracy of the reporting
Agreed.

Very good paper in my view. Good interview with Jordan today, for example. Opinion pieces are shit everywhere; usually the author's political views on moral highgrounds.
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