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  #41  
Old 03.07.2021, 16:07
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Re: F-35: those who think the USandA suck at sales are wrong

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Saab probably did not grease the wheels with enough "incentive."

But seriously the era of the manned swish-kaboom is over, drones are the way to go; way more manoeuvrable, pack the same punch for less bucks and if one gets shot down who cares, send the next one, and if you have to you can kamikaze in on your target.
Can´t do that with a F35.
Grease the wheels? Even if we're peasants, we could talk and write better It's called offsets.

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The F-35′s victory was forecast by Swiss broadcaster SRF, which reported last week that the F-35 had scored best in the performance evaluation. According to SRF, Switzerland would be able to purchase more F-35s with its budget than the competing aircraft.

However, industrial considerations also played a role in the decision. Throughout the competition, the Swiss government made clear that competitors must provide a robust package of offsets meant to boost Switzerland’s defense-industrial base. The Federal Council noted that the F-35 did not achieve the best performance in the area of offsets.

Although the Swiss decision did not lay out which competitor offered the best offset package, Airbus had provided the Swiss government a 700-page dossier on economic offsets, Reuters reported on June 27. That proposal included an offer to conduct final assembly of the Typhoon in Switzerland.

To meet industrial participation requirements, Lockheed proposed a batch of offsets that included domestic production of about 400 F-35 canopies and transparencies, the creation of a maintenance hub in Switzerland that would maintain European F-35 users’ canopies and transparencies, and the creation of a Swiss cyber center of excellence.
https://www.defensenews.com/air/2021...ghter-contest/

There you have it. A fraction of the billions should be invested/spent by the winning company in Switzerland. That contributes to the development of the local aerospace industry and creates well-paid jobs.

So, we can play bingo about which local industry gets manufacturing or service contracts. The money passes from CH hands to Lockheed, and then back to Swiss companies.
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  #42  
Old 03.07.2021, 17:29
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Re: F-35: those who think the USandA suck at sales are wrong

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The money passes from CH hands to Lockheed, and then back to Swiss companies.
Well, specifically to RUAG, which is - cough - the Swiss government (fig-leaved via BGRB Holding but). Not to generalize based on previous deals, but it will be interesting to see where Viola Amherd and the actual military honchos retire/board down the road.
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  #43  
Old 03.07.2021, 17:35
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Re: F-35: those who think the USandA suck at sales are wrong

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the aircraft will be operated and maintained in Switzerland by the Swiss Air Force and RUAG Switzerland.
https://www.admin.ch/gov/en/start/do...-id-84275.html

Sweetly ambiguous, but I doubt Switzerland will be able to maintain whole F-35s. The thing is so complex that barely anyone in Europe comes close to autonomous maintenance of the F-35. As for upgrades, where the big $s are, I guess we can forget about it.



This may be closer to the truth:

Quote:
Lockheed proposed a batch of offsets that included domestic production of about 400 F-35 canopies and transparencies, the creation of a maintenance hub in Switzerland that would maintain European F-35 users’ canopies and transparencies, and the creation of a Swiss cyber center of excellence.
https://www.defensenews.com/air/2021...ghter-contest/
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  #44  
Old 03.07.2021, 20:11
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Re: F-35: those who think the USandA suck at sales are wrong

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Or are the Swiss simply (as usual) gullible? As ever so often, not an expert but I’m convinced this “choice” is wrong in multiple ways. Anyone care to argue or *gasp* agree?
It is right for Switzerland not to choose any EU plane. This is the only language the EU politicians understand. 6.5 billion USD going to US instead of EU. Practically another slap in their face which cannot be ignored. Next time a treaty will be negotiated, EU knows that cherry picking doesn't work and will think twice before making unreasonable demands to Switzerland.

Right now Macron is probably chasing the Vanderleyen creature on the EU commission grounds yelling "where is my money?? I am missing 6.5 billion"
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  #45  
Old 04.07.2021, 00:03
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Re: F-35: those who think the USandA suck at sales are wrong

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It is right for Switzerland not to choose any EU plane. This is the only language the EU politicians understand. 6.5 billion USD going to US instead of EU. Practically another slap in their face which cannot be ignored. Next time a treaty will be negotiated, EU knows that cherry picking doesn't work and will think twice before making unreasonable demands to Switzerland.

Right now Macron is probably chasing the Vanderleyen creature on the EU commission grounds yelling "where is my money?? I am missing 6.5 billion"
the F35 offer was simply cheaper. If it was more expensive they wouldn't have gone with it.

The problem is they guarantee the operating costs only for the first 10 years. The rest is just calculations based on data provided by the company itself.
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  #46  
Old 04.07.2021, 07:35
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Re: F-35: those who think the USandA suck at sales are wrong

But a tool that costs $35,000 per hour to operate, that will never be used for its stated purpose (shoot and bomb things), is simply a boondoggle.

No doubt lots of people, both in and outside the country, are going to make a lot of money. But the average Swiss taxpayer is going to get nothing out of this deal.

We don’t need it, we can’t use it, we can vote against it.
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  #47  
Old 04.07.2021, 09:13
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Re: F-35: those who think the USandA suck at sales are wrong

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But a tool that costs $35,000 per hour to operate, that will never be used for its stated purpose (shoot and bomb things), is simply a boondoggle.
Deterrence ain't cheap.
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  #48  
Old 04.07.2021, 10:23
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Re: F-35: those who think the USandA suck at sales are wrong

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Deterrence ain't cheap.
Exactly who are they going to deter?
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  #49  
Old 04.07.2021, 10:33
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Re: F-35: those who think the USandA suck at sales are wrong

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Deterrence ain't cheap.
This. Modern warfare is mostly about arsenal and potential. Don't understand how it may be not evident.
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  #50  
Old 04.07.2021, 11:20
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Re: F-35: those who think the USandA suck at sales are wrong

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This. Modern warfare is mostly about arsenal and potential. Don't understand how it may be not evident.
Modern warfare actually seems to be about cyber skills.
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  #51  
Old 04.07.2021, 11:23
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Re: F-35: those who think the USandA suck at sales are wrong

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Modern warfare actually seems to be about cyber skills.
Of course. So a bunch of recycled much cheaper planes will not hurt. It's a display. And leaves enough elbow room to send a message to R via the EU.
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  #52  
Old 04.07.2021, 11:26
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Re: F-35: those who think the USandA suck at sales are wrong

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It is right for Switzerland not to choose any EU plane. This is the only language the EU politicians understand. 6.5 billion USD going to US instead of EU. Practically another slap in their face which cannot be ignored. Next time a treaty will be negotiated, EU knows that cherry picking doesn't work and will think twice before making unreasonable demands to Switzerland.

Right now Macron is probably chasing the Vanderleyen creature on the EU commission grounds yelling "where is my money?? I am missing 6.5 billion"
This is quite a silly attitude. Closure of the “umbrella framework” agreement is okay with me. Its implications were just not acceptable. The Swiss negotiators signing off the potential agreement at all is the scandalous bit. This is where our system of government utterly fails: responsibility. A clique of pro-EU functionaries are allowed free reign until realization dawns.
Switzerland is less than innocent for this fiasco. If you enjoy slapping your direct neighbours a lot, I’m glad I don’t live next to you.
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  #53  
Old 04.07.2021, 11:28
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Re: F-35: those who think the USandA suck at sales are wrong

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Of course. So a bunch of recycled much cheaper planes will not hurt. It's a display. And leaves enough elbow room to send a message to R via the EU.
Who is R?
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  #54  
Old 04.07.2021, 11:29
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Re: F-35: those who think the USandA suck at sales are wrong

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Exactly who are they going to deter?
Anyone with a more than just unfriendly attitude. Swiss deterrence might not be huge but minimal insurance is better than none.
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  #55  
Old 04.07.2021, 11:29
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Re: F-35: those who think the USandA suck at sales are wrong

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Who is R?
RF/RUS = Russia
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  #56  
Old 04.07.2021, 11:32
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Re: F-35: those who think the USandA suck at sales are wrong

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RF/RUS = Russia
Oh I am sure they are terrified. They are also very likely to invade their vault.
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  #57  
Old 04.07.2021, 11:44
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Re: F-35: those who think the USandA suck at sales are wrong

Brilliant. Keep on selling those primitive cash cows while cruising the hood in our new anti-gravity UAP's.


The see me float'n
They hate'n
Patrolling they trying to catch me flying dirty.
Trying to catch me flying dirty
Trying to catch me flying dirty
My propulsion is so quite
I'm hovering
They hoping they gonna catch me flying dirty.
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  #58  
Old 04.07.2021, 12:02
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Re: F-35: those who think the USandA suck at sales are wrong

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Brilliant. Keep on selling those primitive cash cows while cruising the hood in our new anti-gravity UAP's.


The see me float'n
They hate'n
Patrolling they trying to catch me flying dirty.
Trying to catch me flying dirty
Trying to catch me flying dirty
My propulsion is so quite
I'm hovering
They hoping they gonna catch me flying dirty.
This is brilliant

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  #59  
Old 04.07.2021, 13:07
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Re: F-35: those who think the USandA suck at sales are wrong

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[url]This may be closer to the truth:
I guess the challenge of the bidders was to guess which local production would make the Swiss happier. Well, it's not a guess, it's having people on the ground already working in the industry.

Also curious that we got to 50+ replies and now one has congratulated the great sales job of President Joe Biden. Maybe the defense objective of the Swiss is achieved in an indirect way: by buying from the guys with the real army/navy/AF. Of course, this is just a wild speculation, a proper conspiracy theory.
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  #60  
Old 04.07.2021, 13:21
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Re: F-35: those who think the USandA suck at sales are wrong

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I guess the challenge of the bidders was to guess which local production would make the Swiss happier. Well, it's not a guess, it's having people on the ground already working in the industry.

Also curious that we got to 50+ replies and now one has congratulated the great sales job of President Joe Biden. Maybe the defense objective of the Swiss is achieved in an indirect way: by buying from the guys with the real army/navy/AF. Of course, this is just a wild speculation, a proper conspiracy theory.
Excuse me, I started out with a nod towards US salesmanship, albeit together with questioning Swiss gullibility.

The USA certainly still has real armed forces. However, from Vietnam to Afghanistan: a really sad story. Whatever worth the US military might have, the politics of serial US governments are more than deplorable. It looks like normal that multiple allies are thrown under the bus when the breeze shifts since quite a while.
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