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  #181  
Old 26.09.2021, 17:28
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Your question either doesn't make sense or you answered it yourself. (not faddish).

Not every fart is a good idea in the end. The Swiss system - all the procedures until it can be voted on by the population - takes a long time. What ever the subject, it goes through a long process (either Ständerat, Nationalrat, Bundesrat) or collecting signatures. All the while this is happening, the entire population is already aware of it/discussing it.

While the world thinks this is inflexible and slow, it is pragmatic. By the time the population votes, most people have gathered the information they think necessary for themselves to make a decision and nobody is taken by surprise by a voting template.
In theory this makes sense. In practice, however, voter turnout is often very low. So I guess people who are interested are discussing it and are aware of it, but can you really say the entire population is aware?
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  #182  
Old 26.09.2021, 17:42
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Re: Vote September 26th

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I don't think me choosing to not get married yet is comparable to progression in society...
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  #183  
Old 26.09.2021, 18:06
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Re: Vote September 26th

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I understand that, of course, things take time, but when you see that it got legalised in the Netherlands in 2001, Norway 2009, Spain 2005 etc, it does seem that 2021 is somewhat behind the times.
The problem with your position is that you claim to define what's right. It doesn't get more arrogant than that, and ignorant to boot as you imply infallability.
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  #184  
Old 26.09.2021, 18:24
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Your question either doesn't make sense or you answered it yourself. (not faddish).

Not every fart is a good idea in the end. The Swiss system - all the procedures until it can be voted on by the population - takes a long time. What ever the subject, it goes through a long process (either Ständerat, Nationalrat, Bundesrat) or collecting signatures. All the while this is happening, the entire population is already aware of it/discussing it.

While the world thinks this is inflexible and slow, it is pragmatic. By the time the population votes, most people have gathered the information they think necessary for themselves to make a decision and nobody is taken by surprise by a voting template.

Of course it makes sense as a qu. Why wait? Same sex marriage is not new. Not a fad, hence my question. In this instance, what info is there to gather?



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Not faddish? Suppose it does depend upon your POV a bit. Can’t imagine similar legislation being directly approved by popular vote in numerous countries between here and Australia – trying to avoid the usual labels….
We're still talking same-sex marriage, yes? I'd be interested in a POV explaining why it is a fad...


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The problem with your position is that you claim to define what's right. It doesn't get more arrogant than that, and ignorant to boot as you imply infallability.

Where is the arrogance? Where did anyone define "right"? I would say that it is a right that same-sex couples can marry, just as it is for heterosexual couples. However that ismy opinion.

Calling someone ignorant because you don't like what is being said isn't helpful.

Still doesn't really answer my question, not entirely. It's been, what, 8 ish years since legal in the US and UK? 2021 is "behind the times" when compared to other countries. Anyway, asked, kinda answered, cheers for responses.

Last edited by RufusB; 26.09.2021 at 18:31. Reason: Spellink
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  #185  
Old 26.09.2021, 18:42
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Re: Vote September 26th

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The problem with your position is that you claim to define what's right. It doesn't get more arrogant than that, and ignorant to boot as you imply infallability.
I never claimed it was "right". Do I think it's the right thing to do? Yes. Do I think we deserve the right to get married like heterosexual couples? Yes, but I've never once claimed that I'm right and everyone who apposes is all wrong... I'm just trying to get involved in the discussion like everyone else 🤷🏾♂️
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  #186  
Old 26.09.2021, 18:46
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Re: Vote September 26th

I'm Sure mikedraggos,vushka,flying kite etc are running to adopt all the kids before teh gheys... Right?
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  #187  
Old 26.09.2021, 18:47
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Same sex marriage is not new.
In which country is it NOT new?

"In 2001, the metropolitan Netherlands became the first country to establish same-sex marriage by law."

Only 20 years ago is certainly "new".

Tom
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  #188  
Old 26.09.2021, 19:37
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Re: Vote September 26th

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I'm off work dying from a cold today, so this makes me very happy.

Thanks, Switzerland, huge step forward
Lots of colds about now we no longer have lockdowns, limited mask-wearing, and too many people ignoring social distancing and handwashing; this is meant as a general observation about the many infections, not as a personal dig
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  #189  
Old 26.09.2021, 19:43
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Lots of colds about now we no longer have lockdowns, limited mask-wearing, and too many people ignoring social distancing and handwashing; this is meant as a general observation about the many infections, not as a personal dig
Plus I think almost two years of social distancing has somewhat weakened my immune system!
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  #190  
Old 26.09.2021, 19:46
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Re: Vote September 26th

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we no longer have lockdowns, limited mask-wearing, and too many people ignoring social distancing and handwashing
And rightly so!

Tom
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  #191  
Old 26.09.2021, 19:48
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Re: Vote September 26th

Best not to go to Italy then, Tom.
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  #192  
Old 26.09.2021, 19:53
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Best not to go to Italy then, Tom.
Why not?

I will go on Tuesday.

Tom
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  #193  
Old 26.09.2021, 19:55
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Re: Vote September 26th

Can we please keep this thread about the vote from today and not turn it into yet another Coronavirus thread? Please?

And thanks!
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  #194  
Old 26.09.2021, 20:08
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Re: Vote September 26th

Fantastic to see how Switzerland keeps saying no to the populist left and purely symbolic "tax the rich" initiatives. In many other places, this would have gotten much more support.
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  #195  
Old 26.09.2021, 20:29
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Re: Vote September 26th

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I never claimed it was "right". Do I think it's the right thing to do? Yes. Do I think we deserve the right to get married like heterosexual couples? Yes, but I've never once claimed that I'm right and everyone who apposes is all wrong... I'm just trying to get involved in the discussion like everyone else ����♂️
Your "CH is a bit behind" and whatnot tells a very different story, at best it's condescending and massively patronising. Change is far from always positive, and as already pointed out the entire undetaking is completely ignoring the effect on the children. It's the usual "sod everybody else, I only care about me".
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  #196  
Old 26.09.2021, 20:37
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Re: Vote September 26th

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In theory this makes sense. In practice, however, voter turnout is often very low. So I guess people who are interested are discussing it and are aware of it, but can you really say the entire population is aware?
Can you say that for any population? There are many "un-political" people in Switzerland too but usually even a big part of those know what's in the pipe-line.

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I don't think me choosing to not get married yet is comparable to progression in society...
I was taking the piss out of you telling the Swiss they are late while you don't even need the new law yet. S'all.

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Of course it makes sense as a qu. Why wait? Same sex marriage is not new. Not a fad, hence my question. In this instance, what info is there to gather? ......
What's this waiting you keep banging on about?
We should have voted about it, when NL did? Just because they did? I can not - at all - follow your posts.

However, this thing was something a lot of voters are not personally impacted, it may be very old news/desires to a lot of people but it is a new/scary/strange/what ever concept to many. It took a process within the society. If people don't understand that in a direct democracy (and I don't blame them if they don't live here as there is no such thing except in Switzerland) decision making is not about who shouts loudest and who scares the most but about finding a majority to agree (and therefore carry a decision), then they should invest time in studying this system. Or just admit they're clueless (about this society and it's decision making .... just in case someone gets it wrong AGAIN).

Anyway, because the chance complaining about a "no" is gone, the complaining is now about being too late.

In new EF-manner I should probably add I'm deeply offended by this constant complaining?
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  #197  
Old 26.09.2021, 21:07
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Re: Vote September 26th

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However, this thing was something a lot of voters are not personally impacted,
That is where, in my opinion, direct democracy falls down.

People not having an interest or a vote in something because it does not affect them personally is not a reason not to get a law changed.

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It's the usual "sod everybody else, I only care about me".
I think Curley mentioned that too. Seems to be a bit of a theme.
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  #198  
Old 26.09.2021, 21:08
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Re: Vote September 26th

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In theory this makes sense. In practice, however, voter turnout is often very low. So I guess people who are interested are discussing it and are aware of it, but can you really say the entire population is aware?
Voter turnout is very dependent on the topic. Where I live there was a local vote today on a new member for the Church Synod, only around 10% of the people eligible to vote actually did.
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  #199  
Old 26.09.2021, 21:17
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Your "CH is a bit behind" and whatnot tells a very different story, at best it's condescending and massively patronising. Change is far from always positive, and as already pointed out the entire undetaking is completely ignoring the effect on the children. It's the usual "sod everybody else, I only care about me".
When you compare to other counrties, Switzerland was slower to legalise this. I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad thing, and I fully understand every system is different t's just a fact when compared to other countries.
As for the children, as soon as every heterosexual couple do it perfectly, never divorce, never stay in an unhappy marriage for "the sake of the children", then I'll be prepared to hear this argument; I do not believe for one minute that a child with same sex parents would be any worse off than a child with parents of the opposite sex purely because it's "traditional" or "normal ".
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  #200  
Old 26.09.2021, 21:43
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Re: Vote September 26th

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I'm Sure mikedraggos,vushka,flying kite etc are running to adopt all the kids before teh gheys... Right?
…I've worked between 93-97, 4 summers vacation while at college, for free, at Christian charity association, building two orphanage centres and modernising other two...
…now 30 years later I am supporting financially(less) and logistically(more) integration of orphans in healthy families...
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