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-   -   Vote September 26th (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/305763-vote-september-26th.html)

Island Monkey 26.09.2021 23:26

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Urs Max (Post 3350999)
Change is far from always positive, and as already pointed out the entire undetaking is completely ignoring the effect on the children. It's the usual "sod everybody else, I only care about me".

Are you having a laugh? Have you seen some of the awful human beings that "raise" children - but it's ok that they are shite parents, because they are straight? Or what? Do you really think a child raised in a secure loving environment by same sex parents is worse off than those children? :msnmad:

I'm pretty sure these children will grow up to be far more balanced than those raised by football hooligan racists, just for example.

ennui 26.09.2021 23:35

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Flying Kite (Post 3351027)
…I've worked between 93-97, 4 summers vacation while at college, for free, at Christian charity association, building two orphanage centres and modernising other two...
…now 30 years later I am supporting financially(less) and logistically(more) integration of orphans in healthy families...

What’s a healthy family?

zookeeperash 26.09.2021 23:36

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Island Monkey (Post 3351039)
Are you having a laugh? Have you seen some of the awful human beings that "raise" children - but it's ok that they are shite parents, because they are straight? Or what? Do you really think a child raised in a secure loving environment by same sex parents is worse off than those children? :msnmad:

I'm pretty sure these children will grow up to be far more balanced than those raised by football hooligan racists, just for example.

Well said. If this was a campaign for adoption or IVF in general it wouldn't be controversial, but for a gay couple... god forbid.

bowlie 26.09.2021 23:45

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Done and dusted and that’s a good thing IMHO. I am wondering if other forms of marriage will be next. Line marriages, for example, with no numerical limitation on spouse numbers. Or simple Polygamy or polyamorous marriages. Or a mix and match.

And why noy?

father frost 27.09.2021 00:38

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Island Monkey (Post 3351039)
Are you having a laugh? Have you seen some of the awful human beings that "raise" children - but it's ok that they are shite parents, because they are straight? Or what? Do you really think a child raised in a secure loving environment by same sex parents is worse off than those children? :msnmad:

Of course, there is no guarantee that the same sex parents will provide a secure, loving environment though, as far as i'm aware they are just as fallible as the rest of us.

Wonder why these these relationships need to be justified using the worst examples of parenting...

zookeeperash 27.09.2021 00:49

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by father frost (Post 3351062)
Wonder why these these relationships need to be justified using the worst examples of parenting...

I wouldn't say we are justifying same sex couples having kids by saying "hey, could be worse"; however, when people harp on about protecting the children from the gays then it's worth mentioning that compared to some other bad examples of parenting, there are definitely worse things out there then a decent, same sex couple who just want what's best for their kid.
Edit: Also, if we're all just as fallible as each other, why are we even debating this? ��

Island Monkey 27.09.2021 00:58

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by father frost (Post 3351062)
Of course, there is no guarantee that the same sex parents will provide a secure, loving environment though, as far as i'm aware they are just as fallible as the rest of us.

Wonder why these these relationships need to be justified using the worst examples of parenting...

The point is, being good parents is nothing to do with sexuality and everything to do with being decent people. Yet no one questions the right of not so decent straight couples to have kids.

Urs Max 27.09.2021 01:12

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Island Monkey (Post 3351066)
The point is, being good parents is nothing to do with sexuality and everything to do with being decent people. Yet no one questions the right of not so decent straight couples to have kids.

That claim looks very much based on wishful thinking.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Island Monkey (Post 3351039)
Are you having a laugh? Have you seen some of the awful human beings that "raise" children - but it's ok that they are shite parents, because they are straight? Or what? Do you really think a child raised in a secure loving environment by same sex parents is worse off than those children? :msnmad:

I'm pretty sure these children will grow up to be far more balanced than those raised by football hooligan racists, just for example.

Feel free to scroll up. The study on the Canadians linked by yacek in #135 is very sobering.

That said, trying to compare some Nirvana situation with everyday people in an effort to make a point may look intelligent to you, in reality is just a useless rhetorical move that demonstrates complete disinterest in an fair discussion.

BritS 27.09.2021 01:19

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Urs Max (Post 3351068)
That claim looks very much based on wishful thinking.

Feel free to scroll up. The study on the Canadians linked by yacek in #135 is very sobering.

That said, trying to compare some Nirvana situation with everyday people in an effort to make a point may look intelligent to you, in reality is just a useless and pathetic rhetorical move.

It baffles me that this forum has to shut down for amongst other things, homophobic hate speech.

If you think that a gay couple are unsuitable parents just for the fact they like doing it in a different hole to you, i don’t know what to tell you, Urs. Maybe make a few gay friends.

Talk to you later 27.09.2021 10:12

Re: Vote September 26th
 
I voted YES (by proxy) to LGBTQXYZ... marriage. Consenting adults should be allowed to marry and do whoever they want, as it is not my business.

BritS 27.09.2021 10:23

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Talk to you later (Post 3351104)
I voted YES (by proxy) to LGBTQXYZ... marriage. Consenting adults should be allowed to marry and do whoever they want, as it is not my business.

Amen to that.

komsomolez 27.09.2021 10:30

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BritS (Post 3351070)
It baffles me that this forum has to shut down for amongst other things, homophobic hate speech.

If you think that a gay couple are unsuitable parents just for the fact they like doing it in a different hole to you, i don’t know what to tell you, Urs. Maybe make a few gay friends.

Hate speech? The only point that was raised here was the question of adoption, childrens wellbeing. Only in super woke world is that equivalent to hate speech.

BritS 27.09.2021 10:34

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by komsomolez (Post 3351116)
Hate speech? The only point that was raised here was the question of adoption, childrens wellbeing. Only in super woke world is that equivalent to hate speech.

I'm sure if you read my comment again, you'll see I didn't directly accuse anyone of hate speech, but my faux shock that where such opinions are openly aired, that hate speech may occur.

My second issue was using a largely debunked study to prove something to me suggests a slightly deeper set attitude than someone really looking at the facts...perhaps finding something to try and justify the narrative.

Hope that's cleared things up for you, cheers.

MsWorWoo 27.09.2021 11:21

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by father frost (Post 3351062)
Of course, there is no guarantee that the same sex parents will provide a secure, loving environment though, as far as i'm aware they are just as fallible as the rest of us.

Wonder why these these relationships need to be justified using the worst examples of parenting...

Same sex couples are far less likely to get pregnant by accident. They have to plan to have a child, for years in some cases, so they are better prepared than many opposite sex couples.
Yes, they may be just as fallible in many ways, just not when it comes to contraception fails.

(Disclaimer, my child was planned for 4 years before they came into our opposite sex family, and we still divorced, they are fine though… much happier having two (and two step) parents who are happy, than living in a toxic nuclear family).

RufusB 27.09.2021 11:34

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by st2lemans (Post 3350952)
In which country is it NOT new? :confused:

"In 2001, the metropolitan Netherlands became the first country to establish same-sex marriage by law."

Only 20 years ago is certainly "new". :rolleyes:

Tom

Oh good grief Tom.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Urs Max (Post 3350999)
Your "CH is a bit behind" and whatnot tells a very different story, at best it's condescending and massively patronising. Change is far from always positive, and as already pointed out the entire undetaking is completely ignoring the effect on the children. It's the usual "sod everybody else, I only care about me".

What effect on the children? Children want a loving, secure, safe environment. Whoever can provide that is winning in my book. Gay, straight or single.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flying Kite (Post 3351027)
…I've worked between 93-97, 4 summers vacation while at college, for free, at Christian charity association, building two orphanage centres and modernising other two...
…now 30 years later I am supporting financially(less) and logistically(more) integration of orphans in healthy families...

:confused:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ennui (Post 3351043)
What’s a healthy family?

What I want to know too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urs Max (Post 3351068)
That claim looks very much based on wishful thinking.

Feel free to scroll up. The study on the Canadians linked by yacek in #135 is very sobering.

That said, trying to compare some Nirvana situation with everyday people in an effort to make a point may look intelligent to you, in reality is just a useless rhetorical move that demonstrates complete disinterest in an fair discussion.

Yet you keep denigrating the intelligence of those who disagree with you. What is that? That study is pretty much bunkum as far as I can see and only serves to perpetuate a very narrow world view and fear of two blokes/two women raising kids. Good gravy.



Quote:

Originally Posted by komsomolez (Post 3351116)
Hate speech? The only point that was raised here was the question of adoption, childrens wellbeing. Only in super woke world is that equivalent to hate speech.

As I said above: two dads, two mums, single parents, hetero couples, married or not, children want loving, safe, secure family homes. It doesn't matter how that family is constructed. To say otherwise is distasteful at best.

When did "woke" become an insult and a synonym for "everything I don't like /am scared of"?

Children's well-being? In family homes rather than an endless stream of foster carers/group homes has to be the preferred situation, surely?

zookeeperash 27.09.2021 11:39

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Urs Max (Post 3351068)
That said, trying to compare some Nirvana situation with everyday people in an effort to make a point may look intelligent to you, in reality is just a useless rhetorical move that demonstrates complete disinterest in an fair discussion.

Ah so we're not normal to you? :rolleyes:
You know what, if this is such a huge issue for you then you obviously have very few problems in your own life. Maybe try worrying about some actual world problems as apposed to a family unit that looks a bit different to what you'd cosinder "normal".

komsomolez 27.09.2021 11:43

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RufusB (Post 3351146)

As I said above: two dads, two mums, single parents, hetero couples, married or not, children want loving, safe, secure family homes. It doesn't matter how that family is constructed. To say otherwise is distasteful at best.

When did "woke" become an insult and a synonym for "everything I don't like /am scared of"?

Children's well-being? In family homes rather than an endless stream of foster carers/group homes has to be the preferred situation, surely?

My point was not to argue on the pro/con. But there is a big difference between a polite debate on the adoption question and "homophobic hate speech".

RufusB 27.09.2021 11:51

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by komsomolez (Post 3351153)
My point was not to argue on the pro/con. But there is a big difference between a polite debate on the adoption question and "homophobic hate speech".

I'm afraid not if any of the debate about adoption includes concerns that gay couples are somehow less than straight couples or that same-sex couples somehow have a negative impact on children. That's just appalling. And, indeed, hateful. The very idea that children should not be allowed to be adopted by gay couples is homophobic. I don't see how it can be anything else.

Anyway, it thankfully passed, yes?

zookeeperash 27.09.2021 11:59

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RufusB (Post 3351159)
I'm afraid not if any of the debate about adoption includes concerns that gay couples are somehow less than straight couples or that same-sex couples somehow have a negative impact on children. That's just appalling. And, indeed, hateful. The very idea that children should not be allowed to be adopted by gay couples is homophobic. I don't see how it can be anything else.

Anyway, it thankfully passed, yes?

I said the same, and essentially got told I was being emotional and trying manipulate other jnto believing the same as me. But I agree, even if it's not with intent, the statement of "it's not normal" or "they shouldn't be having kids", indeed implies that we are less worthy and does come from a place of homophobia, whether it's intended or not.
I'm sure I'll be corrected about this, but as a gay I have a pretty good idea of where homophobia comes from :p

RufusB 27.09.2021 12:12

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zookeeperash (Post 3351170)
I said the same, and essentially got told I was being emotional and trying manipulate other jnto believing the same as me. But I agree, even if it's not with intent, the statement of "it's not normal" or "they shouldn't be having kids", indeed implies that we are less worthy and does come from a place of homophobia, whether it's intended or not.
I'm sure I'll be corrected about this, but as a gay I have a pretty good idea of where homophobia comes from :p

Oh, being told you're emotional is a bit of a badge of honour around here. Generally means that "the other side" hasn't actually got an actual point but they would like you to shut up now and sit down now because your truth is uncomfortable. IMO, obvs...

Yup. I'd say so too.


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