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Old 27.09.2021, 19:10
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Re: Vote September 26th

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And for this you would have seen 80% support on Sunday.
Indeed, when they came up with the registered partnership solution years ago, I viewed it as a cop-out, and was in favor of full equality instead.

The reproductivity and adoption stuff are both separate issues, and should never have been joined US stile!

Tom
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  #242  
Old 27.09.2021, 19:30
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Re: Vote September 26th

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No, you can be against surrogacy for all - that’s not homophobic. Possibly discriminatory against all with fertility issues, but not homophobic unless you’re only against it for same sex couples.
Most people I talked to/argued against don't really have a problem with the sexual orientation of the couple itself, it both people having the same sex that seems to be the issue.
And imho, that itself is a valid concern and has nothing to do with homophobia.
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  #243  
Old 27.09.2021, 19:44
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Removing implicit accusation of pedophilia for beginners: homosexual couples are only allowed to adopt girls – lesbian couples can only raise boys. Heterosexual couples are locked up (separately, of course) as you never know just how kinky that lot can turn out.
For all those of diverse, in-between bent - we'll get you yet

I'm hoping this is an attempt at humour

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Most people I talked to/argued against don't really have a problem with the sexual orientation of the couple itself, it both people having the same sex that seems to be the issue.
And imho, that itself is a valid concern and has nothing to do with homophobia.

Um... which is the valid concern? It seems like you contradicted yourself.

Having the same sex? As everyone else? You mean they should go all "Cosmo position of the week"?
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  #244  
Old 27.09.2021, 19:45
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Indeed, when they came up with the registered partnership solution years ago, I viewed it as a cop-out, and was in favor of full equality instead.

The reproductivity and adoption stuff are both separate issues, and should never have been joined US stile!

Tom
But for a lot of folk is connected. It's either equality or it isn't.
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  #245  
Old 27.09.2021, 19:56
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Re: Vote September 26th

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And for this you would have seen 80% support on Sunday.
I suspect you'd have seen considerably more support than even that, but you always get a malevolent contingent who muddy the waters with 'what ifs' as a distraction from 'what is'. C'est la Vie!

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Indeed, when they came up with the registered partnership solution years ago, I viewed it as a cop-out, and was in favor of full equality instead.

The reproductivity and adoption stuff are both separate issues, and should never have been joined US stile!
Totally agree. Marriage rights, reproduction rights and adoption rights are all totally separate issues and should be addressed as such. Even so, the legal frameworks will insist that they're addressed as such.

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Most people I talked to/argued against don't really have a problem with the sexual orientation of the couple itself, it both people having the same sex that seems to be the issue.
And imho, that itself is a valid concern and has nothing to do with homophobia.
I'm not sure I understand your post correctly.

To my mind, the gender of the primary care giver/s is irrelevant to a child in receipt of that care. We have single mums and single dads who are fantastic parents. If anything, the 'burden' of care would be slightly lessened by having two responsible adults as primary care givers, as long as they act in respectful unison.
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  #246  
Old 27.09.2021, 20:13
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Most people I talked to/argued against don't really have a problem with the sexual orientation of the couple itself, it both people having the same sex that seems to be the issue.
And imho, that itself is a valid concern and has nothing to do with homophobia.
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Um... which is the valid concern? It seems like you contradicted yourself.
Ok I try again. While I was discussing surrogatory for same sex couples (which I support, for exactly the reason below) my "opponents" voiced concerns that both parents would be either male or female and the child would miss either the male or female role (whatever that means) during its upbringing.
While I don't agree with this, I can comprehend (nachvollziehen) it and don't consider it homophobic.

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To my mind, the gender of the primary care giver/s is irrelevant to a child in receipt of that care. We have single mums and single dads who are fantastic parents. If anything, the 'burden' of care would be slightly lessened by having two responsible adults as primary care givers, as long as they act in respectful unison.
Yes Blueangel, that's my opinion as well.
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  #247  
Old 27.09.2021, 20:15
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Re: Vote September 26th

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While I don't agree with this, I can comprehend (nachvollziehen) it and don't consider it homophobic.
Does that mean that they think the woman should do the cooking and cleaning in their eyes and be useless with a screwdriver?

What if the man doesn't play rugby? What if the woman is a soldier?

Did you ask your friends/colleagues what century they thought they were living in?
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  #248  
Old 27.09.2021, 20:17
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Precisely, it’s a bit silly to have a separate vote for each bit of legislation whereby a gay couple is discriminated against.

Bundle it all up into one vote, get it done, let everyone move on with their lives.
I disagree purely because the law doesn't allow for that, and it's not worth losing the right to everything else which is encompassed within same sex marriage coming into law.

No marriage offers automatic legal access to fostering, adoption, IVF, sperm donation and surrogacy. Each of those reproductive and care issues has it's own individual legal framework. Not all marriages have the goal of becoming parents. Whether you're in a hetero or same sex marriage, all those paths are an 'extra' for want of a better term. Barring surrogacy, I've witnessed them all at close quarters. The rewards are immense, but they're a difficult, and often heartbreaking path for anyone to embark upon.
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  #249  
Old 27.09.2021, 20:19
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Ok I try again. While I was discussing surrogatory for same sex couples (which I support, for exactly the reason below) my "opponents" voiced concerns that both parents would be either male or female and the child would miss either the male or female role (whatever that means) during its upbringing.
While I don't agree with this, I can comprehend (nachvollziehen) it and don't consider it homophobic.



Yes Blueangel, that's my opinion as well.
One wonders if your opponents think it’s ok for a single parent to bring up a child or not? These children are also missing a role model of one gender or the other. If they think single parents are ok but same sex are not, then their reasoning is homophobic.
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  #250  
Old 27.09.2021, 20:20
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Does that mean that they think the woman should do the cooking and cleaning in their eyes and be useless with a screwdriver?

What if the man doesn't play rugby? What if the woman is a soldier?

Did you ask your friends/colleagues what century they thought they were living in?
Well no, I actively try to avoid sounding like a condescending prick
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  #251  
Old 27.09.2021, 20:22
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Re: Vote September 26th

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...my "opponents" voiced concerns that both parents would be either male or female and the child would miss either the male or female role (whatever that means) during its upbringing.
While I don't agree with this, I can comprehend (nachvollziehen) it and don't consider it homophobic.
As long as your opponents applied the same 'logic' to single parents, widows and widowers, then it's not a homophobic view. If they didn't....
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  #252  
Old 27.09.2021, 20:24
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Re: Vote September 26th

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One wonders if your opponents think it’s ok for a single parent to bring up a child or not? These children are also missing a role model of one gender or the other. If they think single parents are ok but same sex are not, then their reasoning is homophobic.
Is it a question of wether or not its ok to bring up a child or not? I'd say that in most cases when this happens there is no other viable option.

Btw
Answer was: "Well, in almost all cases children still see their dads after divorce"
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  #253  
Old 27.09.2021, 20:24
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Well no, I actively try to avoid sounding like a condescending prick
So what reasons did they give? Or didn't you ask?
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  #254  
Old 27.09.2021, 20:25
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Re: Vote September 26th

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I disagree purely because the law doesn't allow for that, and it's not worth losing the right to everything else which is encompassed within same sex marriage coming into law.

No marriage offers automatic legal access to fostering, adoption, IVF, sperm donation and surrogacy. Each of those reproductive and care issues has it's own individual legal framework. Not all marriages have the goal of becoming parents. Whether you're in a hetero or same sex marriage, all those paths are an 'extra' for want of a better term. Barring surrogacy, I've witnessed them all at close quarters. The rewards are immense, but they're a difficult, and often heartbreaking path for anyone to embark upon.
That’s a fair enough position and is really a procedural issue rather than any objection to content i suppose.

Honestly, I’m in favour of whatever equalises discrimination by immutable characteristics as quickly as possible.
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  #255  
Old 27.09.2021, 20:37
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Re: Vote September 26th

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So what reasons did they give? Or didn't you ask?
Well it was more of a philosophical discussion after quite some beer.
I can't recite it all properly. I'll try to give you an insight with some questions/examples

Maybe you had once a situation in your childhood where you needed to open up to your parents, but were only able to speak with your father/your mother...

My children are quite selective on who gets to console them when they are hurt. Sometimes me, sometimes my wife.

Newborns (or cats ) who interact only with male/female strangers

Granted, none of this examples must have something to do with sex. Personality, (shared) history etc. could just be the deciding factor as well.
But I think you get the idea.
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  #256  
Old 27.09.2021, 20:38
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Is it a question of wether or not its ok to bring up a child or not? I'd say that in most cases when this happens there is no other viable option.

Btw
Answer was: "Well, in almost all cases children still see their dads after divorce"
There are many reasons for single parents; I doubt divorce is the major reason.
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  #257  
Old 27.09.2021, 20:40
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Well it was more of a philosophical discussion after quite some beer.
I can't recite it all properly. I'll try to give you an insight with some questions/examples

Maybe you had once a situation in your childhood where you needed to open up to your parents, but were only able to speak with your father/your mother...

My children are quite selective on who gets to console them when they are hurt. Sometimes me, sometimes my wife.

Newborns (or cats ) who interact only with male/female strangers

Granted, none of this examples must have something to do with sex. Personality, (shared) history etc. could just be the deciding factor as well.
But I think you get the idea.
Let me get this straight - your friends said that gay couples should not be allowed to adopt because some cats only interact with strangers of one sex?

You said I sounded like a condescending prick. Would you like some choice words to describe your 'friends'? Seriously?
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  #258  
Old 27.09.2021, 20:42
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Re: Vote September 26th

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There are many reasons for single parents; I doubt divorce is the major reason.
Are there?
Either the child was born out of wedlock and the father wants nothing to with it or the parents were together and are now divorced. Then theres the possibility that one parent died.
What am I missing?
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  #259  
Old 27.09.2021, 20:43
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Let me get this straight - your friends said that gay couples should not be allowed to adopt because some cats only interact with strangers of one sex?

You said I sounded like a condescending prick. Would you like some choice words to describe your 'friends'? Seriously?
Well no of course not

I am sorry, I seem to have overstrained your imagination a bit. Was it too abstract?
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  #260  
Old 27.09.2021, 20:48
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Re: Vote September 26th

I don't have a vote here, I didn't agree with he Burka ban I was all for Gay people marrying and adoption rights.


Neither votes have any big bearing on me as i mind my own side of the street and don't pay much attention to what happens at the other side of the street. Time to find something else to moan about.
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