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  #261  
Old 27.09.2021, 20:50
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Well no of course not
So your friends didn't say that and you just made it up?

What exactly did they say that you feel you can't repeat here?

I really don't know the point you are trying to make.
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  #262  
Old 27.09.2021, 20:50
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Are there?
Either the child was born out of wedlock and the father wants nothing to with it or the parents were together and are now divorced. Then theres the possibility that one parent died.
What am I missing?
Try harder!

Reasons for becoming a single parent include divorce, break-up, abandonment, domestic violence, rape, death of the other parent, childbirth by surrogacy, childbirth by artificial insemination, or single-person adoption
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  #263  
Old 27.09.2021, 20:53
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Are there?
Either the child was born out of wedlock and the father wants nothing to with it or the parents were together and are now divorced. Then theres the possibility that one parent died.
What am I missing?
And another:


Mothers giving up their children to the father?
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  #264  
Old 27.09.2021, 20:55
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Re: Vote September 26th

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So the answer is yes?

I know I was being provocative. I just think it is absurd to define peoplw like me as homophobic because they have reservations on this one issue while being totally supportive of all the other components of this law.

It is also absurd to see my post deleted "in response to" another post I did not even quote or refer to.
But distill down those reservations and what do you get? What, exactly, precisely, are those reservations? If they have anything to do with a kid having two mummies or two daddies... then ....
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  #265  
Old 27.09.2021, 21:03
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Re: Vote September 26th

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So your friends didn't say that and you just made it up?

What exactly did they say that you feel you can't repeat here?

I really don't know the point you are trying to make.
Those should have been examples of one individual interacting selectively with either a male or female person in different situations.


Is there something inherently male or female in our soul in us which would be missed with same sex parents.
That was the, again poorly phrased, core of the discussion.

I added the cat to the example because we had once a male maine coon who absolutely ignored any males visiting us. It seemed fitting to the context above.
No cats were mentioned during the whole evening

Before you start lecturing me about this, I repeat:
Granted, none of this examples must have something to do with sex. Personality, (shared) history etc. could just be the deciding factor as well.
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  #266  
Old 27.09.2021, 21:03
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Re: Vote September 26th

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But distill down those reservations and what do you get? What, exactly, precisely, are those reservations? If they have anything to do with a kid having two mummies or two daddies... then ....
I explained my reservations well above in this thread. Basically yes, all else being equal (so forget your foster home stories), I believe it is better for the child to grow up with one female and one male parent. Women and men are equal in their rights, but they are also different, and I believe a kid benefits from learning and experiencing this from day one.

Funny, just thinking of a gay relative. He would piss himself laughing reading this thread as having kids is the last thing he and his partner would want.
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  #267  
Old 27.09.2021, 21:08
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Re: Vote September 26th

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I explained my reservations well above in this thread. Basically yes, all else being equal (so forget your foster home stories), I believe it is better for the child to grow up with one female and one male parent. Women and men are equal in their rights, but they are also different, and I believe a kid benefits from learning and experiencing this from day one.

Funny, just thinking of a gay relative. He would piss himself laughing reading this thread as having kids is the last thing he and his partner would want.
Finally, we're getting somewhere.

You believe a man/man or woman/woman pair are inferior to a man/woman partnership.

Guess what that makes you...?
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  #268  
Old 27.09.2021, 21:08
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Re: Vote September 26th

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I explained my reservations well above in this thread. Basically yes, all else being equal (so forget your foster home stories), I believe it is better for the child to grow up with one female and one male parent. Women and men are equal in their rights, but they are also different, and I believe a kid benefits from learning and experiencing this from day one.

Funny, just thinking of a gay relative. He would piss himself laughing reading this thread as having kids is the last thing he and his partner would want.
Your explanations are still based on a belief that two men, or two women, together, are less than a man and a woman. That is the crux of it and that is the problem. Kids need love, security, support, in whatever format works.
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  #269  
Old 27.09.2021, 21:13
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Finally, we're getting somewhere.

You believe a man/man or woman/woman pair are inferior to a man/woman partnership.

Guess what that makes you...?
Tell me.
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  #270  
Old 27.09.2021, 21:16
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Btw
Answer was: "Well, in almost all cases children still see their dads after divorce"
And my response would be, what about the grandparents, aunties, uncles, cousins, etc... There are role models aplenty in families. Because of my dad's long working hours and my childhood bedtime, I spent a hell of a lot more time with my paternal granddad than my dad for my first 8 or so years.

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Honestly, I’m in favour of whatever equalises discrimination by immutable characteristics as quickly as possible.
Same here, and whilst sperm donation is currently only open to heterosexual couples in Switzerland, and surrogacy is illegal to all, such procedures would happen outside of the country. The issue would inevitably be adoption of those children by the other partner within the marriage, but from what I've read here on many occasions, that can be an issue for hetero couples.

In the UK, my brother's wife had a 9yr old foster son when they married, who had been with her since he was 7mths old. It was a further 4yrs before his biological parents allowed the adoption to proceed (he'd been taken into emergency care as a baby and his parents weren't allowed access to him or his 2 siblings). My brother went through hell dealing with the investigations of the adoption board, even though he was a solicitor who had specialised in child protection and his wife is a social worker with extensive experience as a foster carer.

What I'm trying to say is, the adoption laws of Switzerland are where the next 'battle' lies, and that will have ramifications for everyone involved, whether they be in same sex or hetero marriages. Even a change to sperm donation laws would be biased against men in same sex marriages, so contentious in itself. Whilst most issues can be circumnavigated, everyone will end up with the adoption issues.
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  #271  
Old 27.09.2021, 21:19
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Re: Vote September 26th

Try what?
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Try harder!

Reasons for becoming a single parent include divorce, break-up, abandonment, domestic violence, rape, death of the other parent, childbirth by surrogacy, childbirth by artificial insemination, or single-person adoption
Thanks for your list, some of them are just grounds for divorce break up though.
However now I understood that I wasn't thinking far enough with IM statement here.

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One wonders if your opponents think it’s ok for a single parent to bring up a child or not? These children are also missing a role model of one gender or the other. If they think single parents are ok but same sex are not, then their reasoning is homophobic.
For some reason I only thought of two parents splitting and become a single parents
Thats why I wrote
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Is it a question of wether or not its ok to bring up a child or alonenot? I'd say that in most cases when this happens there is no other viable option.
We didn't talk about one individual becoming a single parent via surrogacy/IVF. Would have been interesting.
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  #272  
Old 27.09.2021, 21:26
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Maybe you had once a situation in your childhood where you needed to open up to your parents, but were only able to speak with your father/your mother...
That's more down to personality than gender.
My mum was very liberal but impractical. My dad was conservative but very practical and a good listener.

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Newborns (or cats ) who interact only with male/female strangers
Studied this as part of my A Level Psychology course. Dogs and teddy bears were the clear winners Bearded male strangers wearing glasses were the least popular.
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  #273  
Old 27.09.2021, 21:26
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Asexual reproduction is quite common amongst plants, animals, and fungi.
Hilarious. But true.
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  #274  
Old 27.09.2021, 21:27
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Tell me.
Slightly too honest for your own good, if I'm being kind.
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  #275  
Old 27.09.2021, 21:34
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Try what?


Thanks for your list, some of them are just grounds for divorce break up though.
However now I understood that I wasn't thinking far enough with IM statement here.



For some reason I only thought of two parents splitting and become a single parents
Thats why I wrote


We didn't talk about one individual becoming a single parent via surrogacy/IVF. Would have been interesting.
In the UK and the US single foster parents are allowed, you also missed rape.
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  #276  
Old 27.09.2021, 21:39
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Re: Vote September 26th

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And my response would be, what about the grandparents, aunties, uncles, cousins, etc... There are role models aplenty in families. Because of my dad's long working hours and my childhood bedtime, I spent a hell of a lot more time with my paternal granddad than my dad for my first 8 or so years.
Mom and dad are heroes until 10 years or so. Then little by little children emancipate. Once I talked about this with my dad. He was not my main role model, it was the people he held in high regard. He likes to sign, but he once said one of his colleagues that climbs mountains was brave......I did that, singing is boring haha. Also, he likes empirical knowledge, I went for theory because he once praised a professor. Things like this.

Also, exposure matters. I'd bet that it's not uncommon that school teachers spent more time with a certain kid that the parents. Then friends, mentors, people oneself admires. It takes a village to raise a kid and all that.

So far the people I know in the real world idolizing dad and mom family are in the 3rd marriage and have succeeded at leaving the kids before they're 15. But.....what nice words they say.
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  #277  
Old 27.09.2021, 21:42
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Re: Vote September 26th

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In the UK and the US single foster parents are allowed, you also missed rape.
Interesting, I haven't made up my mind yet wheter I would be pro or contra on single foster parents. I hope that the social/family network of the single foster parent is taken into account in the UK/US?

I think we can agree that rape is faaaaar away from any conscious decision to have a baby (prior to it) so it wouldn't really fit in the discussion.
But ofc technically you are right, it can lead to single parents.
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  #278  
Old 27.09.2021, 21:51
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Interesting, I haven't made up my mind yet wheter I would be pro or contra on single foster parents. I hope that the social/family network of the single foster parent is taken into account in the UK/US?

I think we can agree that rape is faaaaar away from any conscious decision to have a baby (prior to it) so it wouldn't really fit in the discussion.
But ofc technically you are right, it can lead to single parents.
If you now want to move the goalposts and so limit the discussion to "any conscious decision to have a baby (prior to it)" then in reality you are probably limiting the discussion to only include a minority of children.
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  #279  
Old 27.09.2021, 21:58
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Interesting, I haven't made up my mind yet wheter I would be pro or contra on single foster parents. I hope that the social/family network of the single foster parent is taken into account in the UK/US?

I think we can agree that rape is faaaaar away from any conscious decision to have a baby (prior to it) so it wouldn't really fit in the discussion.
But ofc technically you are right, it can lead to single parents.
"I hope that the social/family network of the single foster parent is taken into account in the UK/US?" I have no clue what that bunch of jargon means?

From the gov UK web site on fostering "Before you can foster, you must pass an assessment to check that you’re able to care for a child. You will not be assessed on your age, ethnicity, gender, marital status, religion or sexual orientation." I hope this helps you.

In the real world, Governments are desperately short of foster parents so take almost anybody, weird when you look at the hurdles adoptive parents have to jump over.
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  #280  
Old 27.09.2021, 22:03
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Interesting, I haven't made up my mind yet wheter I would be pro or contra on single foster parents. I hope that the social/family network of the single foster parent is taken into account in the UK/US?
Single foster care and adoption has been legal for a long time in the UK, and before that, children could be a ward and live with a legal guardian. The concept is far from new, and almost a quarter of UK and US households with dependent children have a single parent.
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