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  #301  
Old 28.09.2021, 11:43
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Re: Vote September 26th

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How is a child being adopted into a loving family with two parents who love and care for them in any way a similar situation?
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But it's not even a similar situation. Single parent (for whatever reason) and a same sex couple is hardly similar.

Both situations are similar as both are less than the ideal, which is being raised by a mother and father.
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  #302  
Old 28.09.2021, 11:52
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Both situations are similar as both are less than the ideal, which is being raised by a mother and father.
And that is your opinion. And pretty much wildly insulting to anyone not in your version of a "traditional" relationship. What if the parents are unmarried. Is that dooming the child too?
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  #303  
Old 28.09.2021, 11:53
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Because both situations are less than the ideal, which is being raised by a mother and father.
I disagree. Being gay does not automatically mean someone is a bad person or will be a bad parent. Having two moms or two dads doesn't mean a child will grow up worse off than a child with one of each parent.

To me, the ideal is to have loving parents.
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  #304  
Old 28.09.2021, 12:05
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Re: Vote September 26th

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I'm guessing that many of the people who have an issue with this issue, were brought up by two opposite sex parents - apparently that however did not make them decent humans
I’m guessing that whatever sex your parents had – you’re prone to considering anyone with a slightly different opinion thoroughly indecent.

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I think that someone who can’t let another live their life as they choose is a bit of a shit.

If you want to marry someone of the opposite sex perfect, doesn’t mean you have the right to tell someone else they can’t do the opposite.
Works both ways. I’m sure you regard yourself as terribly tolerant and the only way to go but do spare a thought on the gnashing of teeth, the enormity of mental anguish your position causes to folk less enlightened than you are. They’re people too, you know. Awwh, forgot, they’re just a bit too shitty…
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  #305  
Old 28.09.2021, 12:12
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Re: Vote September 26th

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I’m guessing that whatever sex your parents had – you’re prone to considering anyone with a slightly different opinion thoroughly indecent.
I'm not a biologist, but I think we can safely guess what kind of sex the parents had.


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Works both ways. I’m sure you regard yourself as terribly tolerant and the only way to go but do spare a thought on the gnashing of teeth, the enormity of mental anguish your position causes to folk less enlightened than you are. They’re people too, you know. Awwh, forgot, they’re just a bit too shitty…
Not really - this is getting into the "be tolerant of intolerance" fallacy. You can argue that anything is a valid position to have, racism, naziism, etc, if members of said groups get offended by tolerance. Whilst in an academic (or down the pub!) discussion, clearly this is of interest, using it to build a society it is abominable.
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  #306  
Old 28.09.2021, 12:18
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Both situations are similar as both are less than the ideal, which is being raised by a mother and father.
That’s your opinion, I would beg to differ.

There are plenty of less than ideal situations in families where children are being raised by both a mother and a father. Some of the very worst reported cases of child neglect and abuse are in families with both a male and female parent.
Having two heterosexual parents doesn’t prevent abuse and neglect.

Being brought up in a single parent family or by gay parents who love and care for the children is infinitely preferable to living in a ‘normal’ (in your words) family with an abusive or neglectful parent or even worse two abusive Iordan neglectful parents.

Last edited by Belgianmum; 28.09.2021 at 13:08. Reason: Typos.
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  #307  
Old 28.09.2021, 12:25
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Not really - this is getting into the "be tolerant of intolerance" fallacy. You can argue that anything is a valid position to have, racism, naziism, etc, if members of said groups get offended by tolerance. Whilst in an academic (or down the pub!) discussion, clearly this is of interest, using it to build a society it is abominable.
Please report on how well the practical society building by hands on, tolerant, non-academics down the pub in Kabul is working out.
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  #308  
Old 28.09.2021, 12:30
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Please report on how well the practical society building by hands on, tolerant, non-academics down the pub in Kabul is working out.
Well they don't allow gays to adopt, which is no doubt a plus point to some.
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  #309  
Old 28.09.2021, 12:32
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Both situations are similar as both are less than the ideal, which is being raised by a mother and father.
"Le meglio è l'inimico del bene" (Voltaire, 1770).

The ideal is scarce. In our world good is more than enough.
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  #310  
Old 28.09.2021, 12:41
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Re: Vote September 26th

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It is incredibly difficult to adopt here, as (hetero) friends of mine have found, much to their sadness.

Gay people being allowed to go through the adoption process is expressly NOT the same as gay people being allowed to walk into a boutique and demand that they receive children, as many people on here seem to be inferring.

Everyone, gay or straight, will still be vetted to the nth degree (as of course they should be) to ensure the child's welfare. Fortunately, the only difference now is that sexuality is not a determining factor in whether someone could potentially be a suitable parent.
This.
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  #311  
Old 28.09.2021, 13:01
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Re: Vote September 26th

Dear Mods,

This vote is over now so I am no longer sure what the topic is?

We are certainly having an interesting discussion about adoption but that was not voted on, maybe should have been?
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  #312  
Old 28.09.2021, 13:08
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Both situations are similar as both are less than the ideal, which is being raised by a mother and father.
Well as other said thats your opiniom.
What is it that makes it better to have a male female couple as parents? How does the parents sex impact the development of their child? And why can't same sex couples provide that?
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  #313  
Old 28.09.2021, 13:12
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Re: Vote September 26th

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I disagree. Being gay does not automatically mean someone is a bad person or will be a bad parent. Having two moms or two dads doesn't mean a child will grow up worse off than a child with one of each parent.
No, BUT every person that has ever existed has exactly one biological parent of each sex, and this will remain the case until humans find a way to asexually reproduce.

Tom
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  #314  
Old 28.09.2021, 13:15
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Re: Vote September 26th

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We are certainly having an interesting discussion about adoption but that was not voted on, maybe should have been?
Wrong, it was voted on as part of the marriage law.

Tom
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  #315  
Old 28.09.2021, 13:24
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Dear Mods,

This vote is over now so I am no longer sure what the topic is?

We are certainly having an interesting discussion about adoption but that was not voted on, maybe should have been?
I think the discussion shows there are some very strong views all around.

What's interesting to me is this definition of a "traditional family" that some seem to cherish. I consider the concept to be fairly recent and a bit of a western-world fantasy.

In the not-so-distant past (and still true in some cultures today), people didn't choose spouses for themselves. Families, matchmakers, kings, etc. chose. Whether you wanted to be married or not, to have children or not, it didn't matter. You got married to someone of the opposite sex and had kids, because that's how society was structured. Or you went into the Church and that was your prescribed life.

Even in those times, it's hard to argue that children absolutely benefited from one male parent and one female. Throughout history children were often reared by the women in a family/society and the men weren't expected to be hands-on soccer dads. In the upper classes, many children were reared by female nannies and neither parent had much to do with the children other than the act of creating them.

I guess that's why I struggle to understand those who feel only a mother and a father can raise a child to be a good person. Or that it's somehow more "ideal" than any other situation.
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  #316  
Old 28.09.2021, 13:28
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Re: Vote September 26th

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No, BUT every person that has ever existed has exactly one biological parent of each sex, and this will remain the case until humans find a way to asexually reproduce.

Tom
Only at conception, is this necessarily true.
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  #317  
Old 28.09.2021, 13:37
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Re: Vote September 26th

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I guess that's why I struggle to understand those who feel only a mother and a father can raise a child to be a good person. Or that it's somehow more "ideal" than any other situation.
How many children would actually grow up in an ideal situation: mother+father, no poverty, no war, live in a free country etc.?

Children adopted by a gay couple will of course miss a male or a female role model parent, but so do children growing up in a single parent family. Does it matter? No, I don't think so.
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  #318  
Old 28.09.2021, 13:38
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Re: Vote September 26th

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No, BUT every person that has ever existed has exactly one biological parent of each sex, and this will remain the case until humans find a way to asexually reproduce.
True, but the argument being made here is different. Some argue that in order to have a happy, healthy child the couple raising the child (whether biological parents or not) must be comprised of one person with XX chromosomes and one with XY. I happen to disagree.

Slightly OT but still related to your post: Scientists have done and are trying some interesting stuff. Have you heard of mitochondrial replacement with IVF? The successful result is a child that has DNA from three people not just two.

Article from 2018: https://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2...parent-babies/
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  #319  
Old 28.09.2021, 13:39
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Re: Vote September 26th

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In the not-so-distant past (and still true in some cultures today), people didn't choose spouses for themselves. Families, matchmakers, kings, etc. chose. Whether you wanted to be married or not, to have children or not, it didn't matter. You got married to someone of the opposite sex and had kids, because that's how society was structured. Or you went into the Church and that was your prescribed life.

Even in those times, it's hard to argue that children absolutely benefited from one male parent and one female. Throughout history children were often reared by the women in a family/society and the men weren't expected to be hands-on soccer dads. In the upper classes, many children were reared by female nannies and neither parent had much to do with the children other than the act of creating them.

I guess that's why I struggle to understand those who feel only a mother and a father can raise a child to be a good person. Or that it's somehow more "ideal" than any other situation.
Teenager is a modern idea. 10-12 years old and you're good to be an apprentice living with your new master, bye bye parents.

Funny enough, contemporary boarding schools were moms and dads are held in high regard instead of being looked down. Those children are not raised by dad and mom, they have less than ideal upbringing and anyway are elevated to positions of power. Summer camps to get rid of the children for some weeks too.
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  #320  
Old 28.09.2021, 13:56
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Re: Vote September 26th

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I think that someone who can’t let another live their life as they choose is a bit of a shit.
Not much hope there of reaching those who bat for the other side, understanding their concerns and perhaps convincing them of the errors of their way.

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Not really - this is getting into the "be tolerant of intolerance" fallacy. You can argue that anything is a valid position to have, racism, naziism, etc.
Who gets to decide what is tolerable and what isn't? That's the problem with the ""be tolerant of the intolerance" fallacy" fallacy.

"There is such a thing as a biological woman, which is distinct from gender identity" is seen by some (possibly on this forum) as a position that's beyond the pale and may not be expressed.

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Slightly OT but still related to your post: Scientists have done and are trying some interesting stuff. Have you heard of mitochondrial replacement with IVF? The successful result is a child that has DNA from three people not just two.
Only two? I have a son and two daughters. The first born has some of his mum's DNA (the full thing, not the zygote portion). The second has some her mum's DNA and some of her brothers. The third has some of mum's and some her siblings.

Oh, and mum has some of all three children's DNA. It's called microchimerism and is very very cool in my view.

https://www.newscientist.com/article...ts-and-uncles/
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