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  #321  
Old 28.09.2021, 15:01
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Not much hope there of reaching those who bat for the other side, understanding their concerns and perhaps convincing them of the errors of their way.
Spot on.
But I lost hope we could have a sensible debate on any issue (we as in "people"), where both sides listen to each other and are respectful to one another. Even just for the sake of being civil, not out of some deep respect. Like a social hygiene measure.
The funny part is that the Swiss have voted, nothing more to be added here.

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How many children would actually grow up in an ideal situation: mother+father, no poverty, no war, live in a free country etc.?

Children adopted by a gay couple will of course miss a male or a female role model parent, but so do children growing up in a single parent family. Does it matter? No, I don't think so.
Even some of those who live in very stable and economically doing well countries, have needs that are not always met. So there.
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  #322  
Old 28.09.2021, 15:10
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Children adopted by a gay couple will of course miss a male or a female role model parent, but so do children growing up in a single parent family. Does it matter? No, I don't think so.
I think kids from divorced families do end up with psychological baggage. Some get past it, but others sink under the weight. So I think it does matter, but does it matter enough to deny a gay couple the right to adopt? Probably not. A good gay couple is probably better than one good hetero parent. Unfortunately, I see too many crap parents around, hopefully gay parents will be an upgrade but knowing humans I am not holding my breath.

I think the coming decades will be very interesting, human biology vs human innovation/science.

My ideal world? No kids and fully formed cyborg adults coming out of Stark Industries.
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  #323  
Old 28.09.2021, 15:11
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Re: Vote September 26th

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...My ideal world? No kids and fully formed cyborg adults coming out of Stark Industries.
And a herd of goats. And lower taxes.
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  #324  
Old 28.09.2021, 15:18
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Well as other said thats your opiniom.
What is it that makes it better to have a male female couple as parents? How does the parents sex impact the development of their child? And why can't same sex couples provide that?
I can mention at least one reason - bullying at school. Considering homosexuality is not yet widely accepted in the society (at least what I see), I bet that in each and every school here the child will be bullied with the questions like “who of your fathers is your mother today?”.
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  #325  
Old 28.09.2021, 15:21
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Re: Vote September 26th

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I can mention at least one reason - bullying at school. Considering homosexuality is not yet widely accepted in the society (at least what I see), I bet that in each and every school here the child will be bullied with the questions like “who of your fathers is your mother today?”.
Yeah maybe, but kids are bullied for religion, appearance, size, color, and occupation of heterosexual parents among a myriad of other things -just add it to the list and figure out how to stop it wholesale.
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  #326  
Old 28.09.2021, 15:24
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Re: Vote September 26th

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I can mention at least one reason - bullying at school. Considering homosexuality is not yet widely accepted in the society (at least what I see), I bet that in each and every school here the child will be bullied with the questions like “who of your fathers is your mother today?”.
Given the majority voted for the law, not sure how you can say it isn't widely accepted in society, that doesn't make much sense.

Kids are tribal, they will always find something to bully one another about. In fact, however, no kid would even be aware of homosexuality or what it means, and any kid singling out another for having two dads is clearly taking their lead from a homophobic parent, so probably better to solve that at source.
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  #327  
Old 28.09.2021, 15:24
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Re: Vote September 26th

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I can mention at least one reason - bullying at school. Considering homosexuality is not yet widely accepted in the society (at least what I see), I bet that in each and every school here the child will be bullied with the questions like “who of your fathers is your mother today?”.
Clothing, hair style, accent while speaking, the options for bullying are endless.....so, the problem is not the "cause", but the bullying itself.

Also, worrying about bullying is literally living in fear. People will always say something, no matter what one does, so screw them
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  #328  
Old 28.09.2021, 15:28
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Re: Vote September 26th

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My ideal world? No kids and fully formed cyborg adults coming out of Stark Industries.
Hmm. But then there'd be no hope into guilting them into looking after you in your old age.

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I can mention at least one reason - bullying at school. Considering homosexuality is not yet widely accepted in the society (at least what I see), I bet that in each and every school here the child will be bullied with the questions like “who of your fathers is your mother today?”.
The trick here is not to stop gays people becoming parents/foster parents, rather to deal with bullying instead of, essentially, pandering to it.
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  #329  
Old 28.09.2021, 16:28
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Re: Vote September 26th

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I can mention at least one reason - bullying at school. Considering homosexuality is not yet widely accepted in the society (at least what I see), I bet that in each and every school here the child will be bullied with the questions like “who of your fathers is your mother today?”.
I’ve seen young boys bullied at school due to their “gay” behavior. I’d say this kind of bullying is the worst. Just the other day I spoke to a young man who had problems dealing with effeminate behaviour. I told him he better learn now because you never know if his own son will exhibit the same mannerisms. I also told him accepting individuality means accepting all individuality.

It made him stop and think.
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  #330  
Old 28.09.2021, 16:34
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Re: Vote September 26th

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I’ve seen young boys bullied at school due to their “gay” behavior. I’d say this kind of bullying is the worst. Just the other day I spoke to a young man who had problems dealing with effeminate behaviour. I told him he better learn now because you never know if his own son will exhibit the same mannerisms. I also told him accepting individuality means accepting all individuality.

It made him stop and think.
I like the way you approached this issue, Olygirl. You're the best.
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  #331  
Old 28.09.2021, 16:35
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Re: Vote September 26th

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  #332  
Old 28.09.2021, 16:50
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Re: Vote September 26th

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I think kids from divorced families do end up with psychological baggage. Some get past it, but others sink under the weight. So I think it does matter, but does it matter enough to deny a gay couple the right to adopt? Probably not.
Agree to a degree.

Too many kids whose parents divorce, have experienced a combative home atmosphere. I lost my dad at 18 and that gaping chasm is never filled. With single parents, you could argue that what kids never had they may be curious about, but do they truly miss it?

To my mind, the primary issue surrounding adoption for same sex couples comes from the possible need for the non-biological parent to adopt their partner's biological children, whether those children are the result of previous relationships, sperm donation, IVF or surrogacy. This is an issue which affects hetero couples too, and also step parents coming into an established single parent family.

For the sake of the children involved, there needs to be a radical rethink and possible logical streamlining of adoption laws where one partner in the marriage is the biological parent and the other isn't. Kids and parents need the stability of knowing that if (God forbid) anything happens to the biological parent, that the surviving parent is fully acknowledged as the legal guardian/adoptive parent.
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Considering homosexuality is not yet widely accepted in the society (at least what I see),
Kids are a lot more switched on than you're giving them credit for. They're busy redefining their view of gender and sexuality way beyond anything I fully understand yet, but even my generation had Bowie and Bolan pushing at the boundaries of gender stereotypes, and my grandmother had her regular Saturday gatherings with her gay actor friends to have afternoon tea and watch the wrestling

If 'society' doesn't accept if, then 'society' can take a running jump.
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  #333  
Old 28.09.2021, 17:01
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Hmm. But then there'd be no hope into guilting them into looking after you in your old age.

I don't need looking after. Stark Industries will be providing blond cyborg beauties for that. There is also EXIT/Stark Industries Recycling center
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  #334  
Old 28.09.2021, 18:14
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Agree to a degree.

For the sake of the children involved, there needs to be a radical rethink and possible logical streamlining of adoption laws where one partner in the marriage is the biological parent and the other isn't. Kids and parents need the stability of knowing that if (God forbid) anything happens to the biological parent, that the surviving parent is fully acknowledged as the legal guardian/adoptive parent.
Why should “streamlining of adoption laws” supposed to be particularly beneficial to a child who rejected one parent’s choice of a new partner? God forbid (but in some cases sadly doesn’t manage), why should the “surviving parent” have precedence over a biological one who lost quite a few rights in a “normal Swiss” divorce procedure anyway?

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Kids are a lot more switched on than you're giving them credit for. They're busy redefining their view of gender and sexuality way beyond anything I fully understand yet,
do keep up at the back...

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but even my generation had Bowie and Bolan pushing at the boundaries of gender stereotypes, and my grandmother had her regular Saturday gatherings with her gay actor friends to have afternoon tea and watch the wrestling

If 'society' doesn't accept if, then 'society' can take a running jump.
I remember, my dad used to moan about my mowing the lawn, cutting my hair and wearing decent clothes... admit I never applied mascara before 22:00
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  #335  
Old 28.09.2021, 18:25
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Re: Vote September 26th

Before they went commercial ...

and Justin swabbed floors
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  #336  
Old 28.09.2021, 19:05
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Why should “streamlining of adoption laws” supposed to be particularly beneficial to a child who rejected one parent’s choice of a new partner? God forbid (but in some cases sadly doesn’t manage), why should the “surviving parent” have precedence over a biological one who lost quite a few rights in a “normal Swiss” divorce procedure anyway?
Certainly, I don't agree with parents and children being made to lose contact through divorce (unless the parent is bad). Fortunately, dual custody of divorced parents is becoming more usual, and there are better rulings made, now, to ensure the child's rights are upheld, to maintain their relationships, freely, with both their parents.

Here goes with an annecdote from Switzerland, some years ago, in which it would have been much, much better, had the adoption laws been streamlined.

A gay male couple both had stable jobs and had lived together for some years. They knew each other's friends and the neighbours, all okay. When they decided to become parents, they asked a longstanding female friend of theirs whether she would be willing to conceive, using the sperm of one of the men, give birth, let them raise the child, but also continue to visit them (as she did, anyway) so they would tell the child, openly, that this was the mother.

And so they did. The little girl was born, and everyone was happy and healthy. Except the parents of the biological father, let's call him Paul, who said that he was sinful, wicked, that they wanted nothing to do with any of them and they were all going to hell.

Paul continued to work, and his partner, let's call him Martin, was a full-time stay-at-home dad, from day 1. When their daughter went to play-group and kindergarten, they told the teachers that Emma was the mother (though not the partner of either man) and all three parents attended school functions. Everyone knew. All fine.

Then, suddenly, Paul was killed in an accident. Almost immediately, Paul's parents swooped in and said that from now on they would be raising their grand-daughter, and took her away to their place.

Martin and Emma, shocked, tried to contact Paul's parents, who refused all contact. There were many conversation with the kindergarten teacher, the school psychologist, a lawyer (with Paul's will, and his declaration about the circumstances of the daughter's birth and life), and neighbours and friends. Backwards and forwards, Martin and Emma grieving for the loss of Paul but also of their daughter, and worried about her well-being.

Of course, they went to see the KESB or similar. Martin was told, in no uncertain terms, that he had no connection whatsoever, to the little girl! Emma took emotional strain, and when she shouted out "but this is my daughter", she was berated for having been such an irresponsible mother as she had given up her child to two homosexuals, and declared unsuitable.

When their attempts to get back the child failed, Martin suggested that he and Emma marry, so that he could then be the legal step-father, (and then adopt) and they could raise the girl together. The marriage officer, however, declined, saying it would be a fake marriage, as Martin had already openly declared himself to be gay, and alerted the KESB to the fact that they should not accept any sudden marriage, were the couple to marry elsewhere.

The kindergarten teacher tried to contact the grandparents, but they would have nothing to do with her, either. They were in another canton, which made everything that much more complex. The grandparents obtained legal papers prohibiting Martin, Emma or the school staff from contacting them or the girl.

Unofficially, the kindergarten or the school psychologist, or similar, contacted their colleagues at the new school in the other canton, to ask how the little girl was doing. Who'd have guessed? She was grieving the loss of the only home she had known, of all three of her parents, was suffering from being told that the two remaining alive were filthy as had her father been, and she had fallen into a deep depression, age 6.

Roll on more streamlined adoption procedures!

Last edited by doropfiz; 28.09.2021 at 19:39.
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  #337  
Old 28.09.2021, 19:38
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Of course, they went to see the KESB or similar. Martin was told, in no uncertain terms, that he had no connection whatsoever, to the little girl! Emma took emotional strain, and when she shouted out "but this is my daughter", she was berated for having been such an irresponsible mother as she had given up her child to two homosexuals, and declared unsuitable.

When their attempts to get back the child failed, Martin suggested that he and Emma marry, so that he could then be the legal step-father, (and then adopt) and they could raise the girl together. The marriage officer, however, declined, saying it would be a fake marriage, as Martin had already openly declared himself to be gay, and alerted the KESB to the fact that they should not accept any sudden marriage, were the couple to marry elsewhere.
That's a bureaucrat taking a lot of decisions. Not an expert but I guess things like this take long legal battles to settle.

Albeit, grand parents are quite optimistic. Death rate goes up along age. Why take up the task of parenting where the odds are against them? Looks irresponsible.
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  #338  
Old 28.09.2021, 21:11
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Re: Vote September 26th

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I don't need looking after. Stark Industries will be providing blond cyborg beauties for that.)
Ah yes. Good point, still presented. Gets my vote.
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  #339  
Old 30.09.2021, 10:45
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Children adopted by a gay couple will of course miss a male or a female role model parent, but so do children growing up in a single parent family.
Unless the other parent is dead, they do have the other parent as a role model, and are not truly in a single parent family.

Tom
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Old 30.09.2021, 14:10
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Unless the other parent is dead, they do have the other parent as a role model, and are not truly in a single parent family.

Tom
Absent father or mother? Well, ok, still a role model. Just a really really bad one.
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