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-   -   Vote September 26th (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/305763-vote-september-26th.html)

st2lemans 10.09.2021 23:51

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ennui (Post 3346980)
Yes, but by the same token, what about civil marriagesÖ..many people have only a civil marriage, sanctioned by the state.

Those are the only kind that matter legally.

Religious marriages have no legal standing in most countries.

Tom

amogles 10.09.2021 23:57

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by minimimi (Post 3347159)

"In Switzerland, social background is more closely linked to success at school than it is in many other countries"

Not sure that I agree.

When I was at ETH many of my co-students had parents from poor and under-priviledged backgrounds. The majority of my Swiss co-workers and past bosses (all engineers or scientists) have or had parents who did manual work or were farmers or taxi drivers or train conductors and things like that. Most of the expats I work with on the contrary come from fairly priviledged middle class type families. Even the non white ones. I even once had a Nigerian work colleague whose grandfather was a tribal chieftain of some sort. So arguably the grandson being an engineer is a step down the ladder in a way.

wachtwoord 11.09.2021 00:01

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by minimimi (Post 3347159)
which ones, why?

no way I can find all the reports now, read tones of them.

but this is for Switzerland:

https://www.oecd.org/pisa/Equity-in-...witzerland.pdf

"In Switzerland, social background is more closely linked to success at school than it is in many other countries"

Whoever is interested can read the rest...

I like the study you found! It starts by explicitly stating its assumptions at the start which 99% of reports of this kind fail to do. Thanks for sharing :)

Doesn't take away that what is desirable in this context is inherently subjective. Further comparing these things between countries does not have much use because you can't isolate the researched variable well enough: so many other factors are different in different countries across the world. This study could be useful to see how it changes for Switzerland itself over time (as long as the methodology and the education system in Switzerland remain unchanged) and even then there are many uncontrolled variables (not every year of students has the same talent, the situation outside of education is not constant e.g. is everyone forced to miss school/cover their mouths? How many kids are in a year? What is the demographical distribution of a particular year? How much immigration is there in a given year? to name a few).

To show that the study, because of its assumptions, misses important information (to me, it's subjective, although I can argue why I consider it important) I'll show a factor of the high quality of education in Switzerland missed by the study:
Many (most?) countries nowadays value an academic educational path over any other form of education. I love how the Swiss system tries to find the right type and level of education and job for an individual better and falls into the more academic pitfall less than other countries. I know many examples (outside of Switzerland) of people who received their university degree while they are much better suited to perform a trade skill. If they would have studied a trade they would have likely been happier with their job, better at their job, more useful to society and made more money. But societal pressure on young minds pushes them to universities even though often that is not the best fit.

olygirl 11.09.2021 00:10

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 3347200)
Not sure that I agree.

When I was at ETH many of my co-students has parents from poor and under-priviledged backgrounds. The majority of my Swiss co-workers and past bosses (all engineers or scientists) have or had parents who did manual work or were farmers or taxi drivers or train conductors and things like that. Most of the expats I work with on the contrary come from fairly priviledged middle class type families. Even the non white ones.

I agree with amogles.

One result of the findings was:

These findings suggest that reducing the gaps related to socio-economic status in what students learn during compulsory schooling could boost upward educational and social mobility.

I've always found students were treated as equally as possible at school. The study did not define "disadvantaged students" and did not explore the obstacles of learning the local language after entering the school system. I also felt there was a bias towards apprenticeships.

Students who are academically strong are advised to pursue more academic careers, no matter their socio-economic background. Universities and colleges are highly subsidized, and schools work closely with government or private programs to ensure that even those who cannot afford tuition but meet all other requirements can still enroll.

minimimi 11.09.2021 00:31

Re: Vote September 26th
 
I have heard of not such equal treatment actually. People from less rich municipalities are often told gymnasiums are something very difficult to achieve. A friend who graduate from ETH was discouraged by his teacher who insisted ETH is not a good option for him.

Overall I think Switzerland does a great job by making many people happy with their choices (I believe happiness matters more than titles, money, etc.)

But I have heard so often from those who did succeed but had non-Swiss background and not highly educated parents that they are not happy how the system treated them or others they know.

amogles 11.09.2021 00:39

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by olygirl (Post 3347210)
I've always found students were treated as equally as possible at school. The study did not define "disadvantaged students" and did not explore the obstacles of learning the local language after entering the school system. I also felt there was a bias towards apprenticeships.

Language may be a problem for kids who moved to Switzerland in the middle of their school career, but from my experience any kid who grew up here speaks the language as fluently as any native.

I think apprenticeships are a good thing in Switzerland. Apprentices still go to school on certain days and the lessons they are taught there are as thorough as in any other school. Academically they are top notch. I have worked with electronics apprentices for example and I was always amazed by their level of proficiency in maths or physics for example. I know some university students who couldn't solve the problems they solved. You can't really compare this to an apprenticeship in any other country where you are just used as a cheap source of labour and expected to pick things up by observing and copying.

Flying Kite 11.09.2021 01:09

Re: Vote September 26th
 
ÖI am agree with the first, and dis-agree with the second...then probably I will be labelled as socialist homophobic...

Necromancer 11.09.2021 09:03

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 3347230)
Language may be a problem for kids who moved to Switzerland in the middle of their school career, but from my experience any kid who grew up here speaks the language as fluently as any native.

I think apprenticeships are a good thing in Switzerland. Apprentices still go to school on certain days and the lessons they are taught there are as thorough as in any other school. Academically they are top notch. I have worked with electronics apprentices for example and I was always amazed by their level of proficiency in maths or physics for example. I know some university students who couldn't solve the problems they solved. You can't really compare this to an apprenticeship in any other country where you are just used as a cheap source of labour and expected to pick things up by observing and copying.

Couldnít agree more..
The Swiss apprenticeship system is very good indeed and I personally prefer my employees here to have gone through one rather than a uni graduate with a micky-mouse degree from toy-town university.
I can well remember first coming here years ago, with the 2nd best craft examination in the UK and one of the prizes was a 3 week full time course at a Fachschule. It was a big wake up call for me when I realised that my level was approximately equal that of a good second year Swiss apprentice.

NotAllThere 11.09.2021 09:57

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jamon8 (Post 3346766)
Since the discussion already started in another thread, I think it makes sense to have a dedicated thread.

So, two questions will be voted:

- 99% initiative - higher taxes on dividends, rents and royalty
- LGBT marriages

The first one is likely to fail. The second one is likely to pass, considering preliminary polls’ results.

I'd abandon marriage entirely and just have civil ceremonies. Martin Luther (reformation) considered marriage to be nothing to do with the church, rather a state issue. What is it with the word marriage that gets people inflamed anyway? I've no problem with gay folk adopting. Better a loving parent or two, than none.

The 99% initiative seems ok at first glance, but how much will it actually raise? Is it not just gesture politics/politics of envy? It seems some people think passive income is immoral. I'm pretty sure if they had some, they might think otherwise!

I'm concerned about the idea of adding a multiplier to income - is that done anywhere else in the tax system? Could it set a precedent? I wonder how it will work in Basel Land, where dividends often have a 0.5 multiplier!

The 100K threshold seems a little low, since many salaries are above that.

Finally - why dividends and interest? Why not levy a surcharge on all passive income, like rent?

Talk to you later 11.09.2021 10:24

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Would say for a kid to be raised in the best possible way, ratings would be like this?

No. 1- Mum and Dad
No. 2- Gay couple
No. 3- Single Parent

Obviously, loving parent(s) trump unloving parent(s) and a lot of single or gay couples will do a much better job than hetero couples.

komsomolez 11.09.2021 11:32

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NotAllThere (Post 3347269)

The 100K threshold seems a little low, since many salaries are above that.

That is the threshold for capital gains, not salary.

amogles 11.09.2021 11:45

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NotAllThere (Post 3347269)
The 99% initiative seems ok at first glance, but how much will it actually raise? Is it not just gesture politics/politics of envy? It seems some people think passive income is immoral. I'm pretty sure if they had some, they might think otherwise!

maybe somebody should explain to them how their pension fund works, and how their own retirement relies on the system they so despise..

zookeeperash 11.09.2021 11:49

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Wish I had the privilege to vote, would deffo be voting yes to marriage equality. It's 2021, kids, there's bigger problems in the world than two people who love each other wanting the option to get married. And I have to say, the anti marriage equality posters and stuff that I've been seeing from SVP have really shocked me...

HickvonFrick 11.09.2021 12:51

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Talk to you later (Post 3347276)
Would say for a kid to be raised in the best possible way, ratings would be like this?

No. 1- Mum and Dad
No. 2- Gay couple
No. 3- Single Parent

Obviously, loving parent(s) trump unloving parent(s) and a lot of single or gay couples will do a much better job than hetero couples.

Well in general 2 is probably better than 1 (at least for the parent!), but I don't think sexuality really matters at all.

HickvonFrick 11.09.2021 12:53

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 3347296)
maybe somebody should explain to them how their pension fund works, and how their own retirement relies on the system they so despise..

Handing your investment returns over to old people?

ennui 11.09.2021 13:20

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Talk to you later (Post 3347276)
Would say for a kid to be raised in the best possible way, ratings would be like this?

No. 1- Mum and Dad
No. 2- Gay couple
No. 3- Single Parent

Obviously, loving parent(s) trump unloving parent(s) and a lot of single or gay couples will do a much better job than hetero couples.

Iíd say 1&2 are equal, then 3. But a good single parent trumps a miserable couple. I think thatís why they call it marriage equality.

TinyK 11.09.2021 13:48

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zookeeperash (Post 3347297)
Wish I had the privilege to vote, would deffo be voting yes to marriage equality. It's 2021, kids, there's bigger problems in the world than two people who love each other wanting the option to get married. And I have to say, the anti marriage equality posters and stuff that I've been seeing from SVP have really shocked me...

There was a hilarious moment in yesterday's talk show Arena when the moderator showed a representative of SVP the original picture of a crying baby who, as the poster claims, is crying over absence of mom, and in fact the kind was crying over the cake. https://www.watson.ch/schweiz/ehe%20...wirklich-weint

wachtwoord 11.09.2021 15:16

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Not truly on topic but in light of the discussion on the swiss education system above I think it still fits here (?).

I came across this (month old) article: https://www.nzz.ch/schweiz/hsg-und-c...uss-ld.1637789

It describes a larger influence by China than I was aware of. Finding a way to slow/counter/protect against this is going to be an important theme in the future I think.

vushka 11.09.2021 15:58

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zookeeperash (Post 3347297)
Wish I had the privilege to vote, would deffo be voting yes to marriage equality. It's 2021, kids, there's bigger problems in the world than two people who love each other wanting the option to get married.

Not that many people are against gay marriage intrinsically.

It might be convenient to pretend itís simply about marriage whilst sidestepping the real issue of same sex adoption but itís intellectual dishonesty.

ennui 11.09.2021 16:11

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vushka (Post 3347415)
Not that many people are against gay marriage intrinsically.

It might be convenient to pretend itís simply about marriage whilst sidestepping the real issue of same sex adoption but itís intellectual dishonesty.

I think there are two issues - the equality of marriage between two people regardless of gender and sexual orientation, and the ability of all married couple to have the same rights and privileges as a traditional couple- including sharing assets, rights to information, and adoption.

I think a same sex couple are just as qualified as a traditional heterosexual couple. Homosexuality is not contagious and heterosexual couples can be violent and depraved.


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