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-   -   Vote September 26th (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/305763-vote-september-26th.html)

Caleb 11.09.2021 16:14

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vushka (Post 3347415)
It might be convenient to pretend it’s simply about marriage whilst sidestepping the real issue of same sex adoption but it’s intellectual dishonesty.

I don’t think anyone is sidestepping the topic of same-sex adoption. It’s just that most of us don’t have the same level of concern about that as you do. I personally have 0 issues with same-sex couples adopting children, not anymore than I take issue with them sharing assets. So why should I single-out that one factor?

I understand that you DO have an issue with same-sex couples adopting, as you clearly stated on page-1, and I fully respect your feelings and concerns about that. But I don’t think it’s fair to accuse everyone else of intellectual dishonesty for not singling out a non-issue (for us).

st2lemans 11.09.2021 16:21

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Talk to you later (Post 3347276)
Would say for a kid to be raised in the best possible way, ratings would be like this?

No. 1- Mum and Dad
No. 2- Gay couple
No. 3- Single Parent

Obviously, loving parent(s) trump unloving parent(s) and a lot of single or gay couples will do a much better job than hetero couples.

Having done #1 and #3, I still have a problem with #2 insofar as that until they come up with a way to produce a child in a viable and useful manner that does not involve a man and a woman, such children will always have a problem not knowing who their parents are or were, which every person has a right to know.

Someone with two mothers still has a father somewhere, same with someone with two fathers.

Tom

komsomolez 11.09.2021 16:27

Re: Vote September 26th
 
If there were two votes, one on marriage, one on adoption, I am not sure both would pass.

ennui 11.09.2021 16:28

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by st2lemans (Post 3347424)
Having done #1 and #3, I still have a problem with #2 insofar as that until they come up with a way to produce a child in a viable and useful manner that does not involve a man and a woman, such children will always have a problem not knowing who their parents are or were, which every person has a right to know.

Someone with two mothers still has a father somewhere, same with someone with two fathers.

Tom

Yes, but that happens with adopted children all the time. It does not matter the gender or orientation of the parents.

HickvonFrick 11.09.2021 16:28

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by st2lemans (Post 3347424)
Having done #1 and #3, I still have a problem with #2 insofar as that until they come up with a way to produce a child in a viable and useful manner that does not involve a man and a woman, such children will always have a problem not knowing who their parents are or were, which every person has a right to know.

Someone with two mothers still has a father somewhere, same with someone with two fathers.

Tom

Plenty of people in the #3 scenario have no idea who their father is.

And surely if you are happy for a child to be adopted by a couple who aren't biologically related to the child, then it hardly makes a difference in terms of the child's knowledge of its biological parents whether that couple are gay or straight.

komsomolez 11.09.2021 16:30

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by st2lemans (Post 3347424)
Having done #1 and #3, I still have a problem with #2 insofar as that until they come up with a way to produce a child in a viable and useful manner that does not involve a man and a woman, such children will always have a problem not knowing who their parents are or were, which every person has a right to know.

Someone with two mothers still has a father somewhere, same with someone with two fathers.

Tom

Well, the same is true for kids adopted by a hetero couple.

I am not saying that a gay couple could not be great parents. I am convinced though that it is better for a child to grow up with a male and a female parent.

jamon8 11.09.2021 16:47

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ennui (Post 3347345)
I’d say 1&2 are equal, then 3. But a good single parent trumps a miserable couple. I think that’s why they call it marriage equality.

An opinion, that for a kid’s wellbeing, to be raised by own mother and father is equal as by two strangers looks really odd to me.

Caleb 11.09.2021 16:59

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jamon8 (Post 3347433)
An opinion, that for a kid’s wellbeing, to be raised by own mother and father is equal as by two strangers looks really odd to me.

Well, shortly after they are adopted, they are hardly strangers anymore. They become the parents.

Perfect example: https://6abc.com/paige-zezulka-ivey-...-good/4101643/

And I’m not crying, it’s just that we used onions for lunch, and it’s raining into my face right now.

vushka 11.09.2021 17:11

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Caleb (Post 3347422)
I don’t think anyone is sidestepping the topic of same-sex adoption. It’s just that most of us don’t have the same level of concern about that as you do. I personally have 0 issues with same-sex couples adopting children, not anymore than I take issue with them sharing assets. So why should I single-out that one factor?

I understand that you DO have an issue with same-sex couples adopting, as you clearly stated on page-1, and I fully respect your feelings and concerns about that. But I don’t think it’s fair to accuse everyone else of intellectual dishonesty for not singling out a non-issue (for us).

I appreciate your level-headedness even though you disagree with me.
I understand it’s not an issue for you and perhaps many others, but it is still a factor as the proposal itself is multifaceted. To distil it down to ‘two people who love each other wanting the option to get married’ seems dishonest.

Caleb 11.09.2021 18:00

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vushka (Post 3347437)
I appreciate your level-headedness even though you disagree with me.

I’ve been married for almost 25 years now. If I can’t have a level-headed argument, I’d be looooong divorced. :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by vushka (Post 3347437)
I understand it’s not an issue for you and perhaps many others, but it is still a factor as the proposal itself is multifaceted. To distil it down to ‘two people who love each other wanting the option to get married’ seems dishonest.

The way I see it, is that the exact same topic can be an issue for some people, while being completely a non-issue to others. The issue has to do with what makes us all different, and the world would be a far better place if we could accept other people’s opinions (mind you, I’m NOT including here matters which can be objectively measured, only things which have to do with perceived moral/ethics, or just extremely hard to judge).

From where I stand, I have 0 issues with a same-sex couple raising children. Before sitting down to write this I searched for a few academic pieces on the topic, and came across quite a few (the initial search returned 138’000 papers, although not even the top results are relevant). Among the top 50 results, I found the following highlights:
I purposefully ignore the studies sponsored by any society or group with “Catholic” in their name, due to the very obvious bias in the PI (e.g. “Emotional Problems among Children with Same-Sex Parents: Difference by Definition”, sponsored by The Catholic University of America.

TL/DR: there seems to be some literature about the impact of the parents sexual orientation in children, which seems to frequently indicate no significant impact. The studies that point out the opposite are few, and seem to me to be rather biased. This could be my own confirmation bias speaking.

For anyone very interested in the topic, there seems to be quite a few papers about the topic that make an interesting rainy day read.

komsomolez 11.09.2021 18:20

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Caleb (Post 3347452)

TL/DR: there seems to be some literature about the impact of the parents sexual orientation in children, which seems to frequently indicate no significant impact. The studies that point out the opposite are few, and seem to me to be rather biased. This could be my own confirmation bias speaking.

For anyone very interested in the topic, there seems to be quite a few papers about the topic that make an interesting rainy day read.

Thanks for the research and summary. I admit my reservations are not based on facts - maybe except the one that obviously the natural way is having a mother and a father.

It is also a topic where at the end of the day I don't care much about.

st2lemans 11.09.2021 20:27

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by komsomolez (Post 3347428)
Well, the same is true for kids adopted by a hetero couple.

I am not saying that a gay couple could not be great parents. I am convinced though that it is better for a child to grow up with a male and a female parent.

My feelings as well.

Even most so-called 'single' parent families have an ex SO somewhere (and I say this as a widower).

Tom

wachtwoord 11.09.2021 20:50

Re: Vote September 26th
 
@Caleb: you say you ignored papers sponsored by catholic organizations that appear biased to you (e.g. Catholic organizations which very likely are indeed biased) and I understand that but don't you think you introduce selection bias by doing so?

Most researchers interested in a specific topic in the social sciences to do a study do so because they have a certain opinion (I cannot prove this statement but I can argue why I believe this is true) on the matter. By removing the people with one bias and leaving the people with the opposite bias (even if I'm wrong on my assumption above there must be more than zero right?) you unbalance your sample of studies in favour of the bias that same-sex couples are no worse that heterosexual couples for a child to be raised by.

Btw: my personal opinion (insofar as relevant here) is that same sex couples create a generally less good environment for the child (because it will lack either male or female influence) but at the same time am in favour of allowing them to adopt regardless. It's not up to me or anyone to limit their freedom to such a degree.

vushka 11.09.2021 20:52

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Caleb (Post 3347452)
From where I stand, I have 0 issues with a same-sex couple raising children. Before sitting down to write this I searched for a few academic pieces on the topic, and came across quite a few (the initial search returned 138’000 papers, although not even the top results are relevant). Among the top 50 results, I found the following highlights:
I purposefully ignore the studies sponsored by any society or group with “Catholic” in their name, due to the very obvious bias in the PI (e.g. “Emotional Problems among Children with Same-Sex Parents: Difference by Definition”, sponsored by The Catholic University of America.

TL/DR: there seems to be some literature about the impact of the parents sexual orientation in children, which seems to frequently indicate no significant impact. The studies that point out the opposite are few, and seem to me to be rather biased. This could be my own confirmation bias speaking.

For anyone very interested in the topic, there seems to be quite a few papers about the topic that make an interesting rainy day read.

What’s interetsing is that when sociologists study traditional families they generally tend to agree that biological parents are advantageous for the children and that both the mother and fathers have essential roles in childrens development. Yet studies with same-sex families (who are always missing a biological parent and either maternal/paternal care) often indicate 'no significant impact'. Of course this might just be a coincidence or there might be a reason for it. There are also papers which highlight the challenges for research on same sex. One in particular stands out:

In particular, because of past discrimination, people in same-sex relationships may not trust researchers to present research findings in fair and accurate ways, keep findings confidential and anonymous, or present findings in ways that will not stigmatize same-sex couples and bolster legislation that limits the rights of same-sex partners.

Caleb 11.09.2021 21:00

Re: Vote September 26th
 
I have the impression that the limited literature indicates that we just don’t know yet for certain, and that there are very significant methodological obstacles. A fairly typical issue in social studies.

But another thing it may hint at, is that there may be no significant disadvantages for children of same-sex couples. But then again, that may very well be what I want to read into it. :D

olygirl 11.09.2021 21:08

Re: Vote September 26th
 
As long as children grow up in a nurturing loving environment, I don't care if the parents are gay or not.

ennui 11.09.2021 21:47

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jamon8 (Post 3347433)
An opinion, that for a kid’s wellbeing, to be raised by own mother and father is equal as by two strangers looks really odd to me.

But that‘s not necessarily the comparison….could be adoptive vs adoptive, or one biological different vs same sex.

st2lemans 11.09.2021 21:55

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ennui (Post 3347556)
could be adoptive vs adoptive, or one biological different vs same sex.

What on earth does that mean?

ennui 11.09.2021 22:07

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by st2lemans (Post 3347563)
What on earth does that mean?

The other poster was comparing biological heterosexual parents to same sex adoptive (hence strangers), and I think it is just one possible comparison and not exactly a fair comparison. In an adoptive Situation, potential parents could be heterosexual or same sex. If the parents are in a stable, loving relationship, I think same sex should be allowed to adopt as well as heterosexual.

Humanoid 11.09.2021 22:10

Re: Vote September 26th
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vushka (Post 3346917)
As others have pointed out, for many against it's not about the marriage, it's about same sex adoption.

As there will be children involved and affected it's simply not good enough to 'look away and move on'.

Your point of view seems to be rather narrow-minded.
Are there gay couples that are unfit to be parents? Absolutely, just as there are straight couples that shouldn't be allowed to raise children. But do all, 100% of gay couples deserve to be denied the possibility of adoption without even considering their specific scenario (in which case they would go thorough far more scrutinizing legal procedure than any heterosexual couple does)?

Not without strong evidence of possible peril to children, which as far as I know, does not exist.


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