Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Swiss politics/news  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 11.09.2021, 15:14
Caleb's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,220
Groaned at 14 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 2,267 Times in 854 Posts
Caleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote September 26th

Quote:
View Post
It might be convenient to pretend it’s simply about marriage whilst sidestepping the real issue of same sex adoption but it’s intellectual dishonesty.
I don’t think anyone is sidestepping the topic of same-sex adoption. It’s just that most of us don’t have the same level of concern about that as you do. I personally have 0 issues with same-sex couples adopting children, not anymore than I take issue with them sharing assets. So why should I single-out that one factor?

I understand that you DO have an issue with same-sex couples adopting, as you clearly stated on page-1, and I fully respect your feelings and concerns about that. But I don’t think it’s fair to accuse everyone else of intellectual dishonesty for not singling out a non-issue (for us).
__________________
The internet makes it easy to be a jerk and forget the person we're talking to is a human. It also makes us see messages from awful people and assume they come from normal peers.
Reply With Quote
The following 7 users would like to thank Caleb for this useful post:
  #62  
Old 11.09.2021, 15:21
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 32,723
Groaned at 2,628 Times in 1,870 Posts
Thanked 39,831 Times in 18,788 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote September 26th

Quote:
View Post
Would say for a kid to be raised in the best possible way, ratings would be like this?

No. 1- Mum and Dad
No. 2- Gay couple
No. 3- Single Parent

Obviously, loving parent(s) trump unloving parent(s) and a lot of single or gay couples will do a much better job than hetero couples.
Having done #1 and #3, I still have a problem with #2 insofar as that until they come up with a way to produce a child in a viable and useful manner that does not involve a man and a woman, such children will always have a problem not knowing who their parents are or were, which every person has a right to know.

Someone with two mothers still has a father somewhere, same with someone with two fathers.

Tom
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #63  
Old 11.09.2021, 15:27
komsomolez's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SZ
Posts: 3,458
Groaned at 318 Times in 220 Posts
Thanked 6,935 Times in 2,941 Posts
komsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote September 26th

If there were two votes, one on marriage, one on adoption, I am not sure both would pass.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank komsomolez for this useful post:
  #64  
Old 11.09.2021, 15:28
ennui's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Kt Zurich
Posts: 1,179
Groaned at 36 Times in 28 Posts
Thanked 3,630 Times in 1,270 Posts
ennui has a reputation beyond reputeennui has a reputation beyond reputeennui has a reputation beyond reputeennui has a reputation beyond reputeennui has a reputation beyond reputeennui has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote September 26th

Quote:
View Post
Having done #1 and #3, I still have a problem with #2 insofar as that until they come up with a way to produce a child in a viable and useful manner that does not involve a man and a woman, such children will always have a problem not knowing who their parents are or were, which every person has a right to know.

Someone with two mothers still has a father somewhere, same with someone with two fathers.

Tom
Yes, but that happens with adopted children all the time. It does not matter the gender or orientation of the parents.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank ennui for this useful post:
  #65  
Old 11.09.2021, 15:28
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Frick, Aargau
Posts: 2,876
Groaned at 62 Times in 50 Posts
Thanked 4,070 Times in 1,901 Posts
HickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond reputeHickvonFrick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote September 26th

Quote:
View Post
Having done #1 and #3, I still have a problem with #2 insofar as that until they come up with a way to produce a child in a viable and useful manner that does not involve a man and a woman, such children will always have a problem not knowing who their parents are or were, which every person has a right to know.

Someone with two mothers still has a father somewhere, same with someone with two fathers.

Tom
Plenty of people in the #3 scenario have no idea who their father is.

And surely if you are happy for a child to be adopted by a couple who aren't biologically related to the child, then it hardly makes a difference in terms of the child's knowledge of its biological parents whether that couple are gay or straight.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank HickvonFrick for this useful post:
  #66  
Old 11.09.2021, 15:30
komsomolez's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SZ
Posts: 3,458
Groaned at 318 Times in 220 Posts
Thanked 6,935 Times in 2,941 Posts
komsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote September 26th

Quote:
View Post
Having done #1 and #3, I still have a problem with #2 insofar as that until they come up with a way to produce a child in a viable and useful manner that does not involve a man and a woman, such children will always have a problem not knowing who their parents are or were, which every person has a right to know.

Someone with two mothers still has a father somewhere, same with someone with two fathers.

Tom
Well, the same is true for kids adopted by a hetero couple.

I am not saying that a gay couple could not be great parents. I am convinced though that it is better for a child to grow up with a male and a female parent.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank komsomolez for this useful post:
  #67  
Old 11.09.2021, 15:47
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Zug
Posts: 177
Groaned at 51 Times in 27 Posts
Thanked 206 Times in 99 Posts
jamon8 has become a little unpopular
Re: Vote September 26th

Quote:
View Post
I’d say 1&2 are equal, then 3. But a good single parent trumps a miserable couple. I think that’s why they call it marriage equality.
An opinion, that for a kid’s wellbeing, to be raised by own mother and father is equal as by two strangers looks really odd to me.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank jamon8 for this useful post:
  #68  
Old 11.09.2021, 15:59
Caleb's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,220
Groaned at 14 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 2,267 Times in 854 Posts
Caleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote September 26th

Quote:
View Post
An opinion, that for a kid’s wellbeing, to be raised by own mother and father is equal as by two strangers looks really odd to me.
Well, shortly after they are adopted, they are hardly strangers anymore. They become the parents.

Perfect example: https://6abc.com/paige-zezulka-ivey-...-good/4101643/

And I’m not crying, it’s just that we used onions for lunch, and it’s raining into my face right now.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank Caleb for this useful post:
  #69  
Old 11.09.2021, 16:11
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2021
Location: transcended.
Posts: 126
Groaned at 150 Times in 75 Posts
Thanked 607 Times in 226 Posts
vushka has earned the respect of manyvushka has earned the respect of manyvushka has earned the respect of many
Re: Vote September 26th

Quote:
View Post
I don’t think anyone is sidestepping the topic of same-sex adoption. It’s just that most of us don’t have the same level of concern about that as you do. I personally have 0 issues with same-sex couples adopting children, not anymore than I take issue with them sharing assets. So why should I single-out that one factor?

I understand that you DO have an issue with same-sex couples adopting, as you clearly stated on page-1, and I fully respect your feelings and concerns about that. But I don’t think it’s fair to accuse everyone else of intellectual dishonesty for not singling out a non-issue (for us).
I appreciate your level-headedness even though you disagree with me.
I understand it’s not an issue for you and perhaps many others, but it is still a factor as the proposal itself is multifaceted. To distil it down to ‘two people who love each other wanting the option to get married’ seems dishonest.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank vushka for this useful post:
  #70  
Old 11.09.2021, 17:00
Caleb's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,220
Groaned at 14 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 2,267 Times in 854 Posts
Caleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote September 26th

Quote:
View Post
I appreciate your level-headedness even though you disagree with me.
I’ve been married for almost 25 years now. If I can’t have a level-headed argument, I’d be looooong divorced.

Quote:
View Post
I understand it’s not an issue for you and perhaps many others, but it is still a factor as the proposal itself is multifaceted. To distil it down to ‘two people who love each other wanting the option to get married’ seems dishonest.
The way I see it, is that the exact same topic can be an issue for some people, while being completely a non-issue to others. The issue has to do with what makes us all different, and the world would be a far better place if we could accept other people’s opinions (mind you, I’m NOT including here matters which can be objectively measured, only things which have to do with perceived moral/ethics, or just extremely hard to judge).

From where I stand, I have 0 issues with a same-sex couple raising children. Before sitting down to write this I searched for a few academic pieces on the topic, and came across quite a few (the initial search returned 138’000 papers, although not even the top results are relevant). Among the top 50 results, I found the following highlights:
I purposefully ignore the studies sponsored by any society or group with “Catholic” in their name, due to the very obvious bias in the PI (e.g. “Emotional Problems among Children with Same-Sex Parents: Difference by Definition”, sponsored by The Catholic University of America.

TL/DR: there seems to be some literature about the impact of the parents sexual orientation in children, which seems to frequently indicate no significant impact. The studies that point out the opposite are few, and seem to me to be rather biased. This could be my own confirmation bias speaking.

For anyone very interested in the topic, there seems to be quite a few papers about the topic that make an interesting rainy day read.
__________________
The internet makes it easy to be a jerk and forget the person we're talking to is a human. It also makes us see messages from awful people and assume they come from normal peers.
Reply With Quote
The following 13 users would like to thank Caleb for this useful post:
  #71  
Old 11.09.2021, 17:20
komsomolez's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SZ
Posts: 3,458
Groaned at 318 Times in 220 Posts
Thanked 6,935 Times in 2,941 Posts
komsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote September 26th

Quote:
View Post

TL/DR: there seems to be some literature about the impact of the parents sexual orientation in children, which seems to frequently indicate no significant impact. The studies that point out the opposite are few, and seem to me to be rather biased. This could be my own confirmation bias speaking.

For anyone very interested in the topic, there seems to be quite a few papers about the topic that make an interesting rainy day read.
Thanks for the research and summary. I admit my reservations are not based on facts - maybe except the one that obviously the natural way is having a mother and a father.

It is also a topic where at the end of the day I don't care much about.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank komsomolez for this useful post:
  #72  
Old 11.09.2021, 19:27
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 32,723
Groaned at 2,628 Times in 1,870 Posts
Thanked 39,831 Times in 18,788 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote September 26th

Quote:
View Post
Well, the same is true for kids adopted by a hetero couple.

I am not saying that a gay couple could not be great parents. I am convinced though that it is better for a child to grow up with a male and a female parent.
My feelings as well.

Even most so-called 'single' parent families have an ex SO somewhere (and I say this as a widower).

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 11.09.2021, 19:50
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Zentralschweiz
Posts: 129
Groaned at 46 Times in 19 Posts
Thanked 246 Times in 79 Posts
wachtwoord has a reputation beyond reputewachtwoord has a reputation beyond reputewachtwoord has a reputation beyond reputewachtwoord has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote September 26th

@Caleb: you say you ignored papers sponsored by catholic organizations that appear biased to you (e.g. Catholic organizations which very likely are indeed biased) and I understand that but don't you think you introduce selection bias by doing so?

Most researchers interested in a specific topic in the social sciences to do a study do so because they have a certain opinion (I cannot prove this statement but I can argue why I believe this is true) on the matter. By removing the people with one bias and leaving the people with the opposite bias (even if I'm wrong on my assumption above there must be more than zero right?) you unbalance your sample of studies in favour of the bias that same-sex couples are no worse that heterosexual couples for a child to be raised by.

Btw: my personal opinion (insofar as relevant here) is that same sex couples create a generally less good environment for the child (because it will lack either male or female influence) but at the same time am in favour of allowing them to adopt regardless. It's not up to me or anyone to limit their freedom to such a degree.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank wachtwoord for this useful post:
  #74  
Old 11.09.2021, 19:52
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2021
Location: transcended.
Posts: 126
Groaned at 150 Times in 75 Posts
Thanked 607 Times in 226 Posts
vushka has earned the respect of manyvushka has earned the respect of manyvushka has earned the respect of many
Re: Vote September 26th

Quote:
View Post
From where I stand, I have 0 issues with a same-sex couple raising children. Before sitting down to write this I searched for a few academic pieces on the topic, and came across quite a few (the initial search returned 138’000 papers, although not even the top results are relevant). Among the top 50 results, I found the following highlights:
I purposefully ignore the studies sponsored by any society or group with “Catholic” in their name, due to the very obvious bias in the PI (e.g. “Emotional Problems among Children with Same-Sex Parents: Difference by Definition”, sponsored by The Catholic University of America.

TL/DR: there seems to be some literature about the impact of the parents sexual orientation in children, which seems to frequently indicate no significant impact. The studies that point out the opposite are few, and seem to me to be rather biased. This could be my own confirmation bias speaking.

For anyone very interested in the topic, there seems to be quite a few papers about the topic that make an interesting rainy day read.
What’s interetsing is that when sociologists study traditional families they generally tend to agree that biological parents are advantageous for the children and that both the mother and fathers have essential roles in childrens development. Yet studies with same-sex families (who are always missing a biological parent and either maternal/paternal care) often indicate 'no significant impact'. Of course this might just be a coincidence or there might be a reason for it. There are also papers which highlight the challenges for research on same sex. One in particular stands out:

In particular, because of past discrimination, people in same-sex relationships may not trust researchers to present research findings in fair and accurate ways, keep findings confidential and anonymous, or present findings in ways that will not stigmatize same-sex couples and bolster legislation that limits the rights of same-sex partners.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank vushka for this useful post:
  #75  
Old 11.09.2021, 20:00
Caleb's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Zürich
Posts: 1,220
Groaned at 14 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 2,267 Times in 854 Posts
Caleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond reputeCaleb has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote September 26th

I have the impression that the limited literature indicates that we just don’t know yet for certain, and that there are very significant methodological obstacles. A fairly typical issue in social studies.

But another thing it may hint at, is that there may be no significant disadvantages for children of same-sex couples. But then again, that may very well be what I want to read into it.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Caleb for this useful post:
  #76  
Old 11.09.2021, 20:08
olygirl's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: d' Innerschwiiz
Posts: 7,770
Groaned at 419 Times in 282 Posts
Thanked 18,298 Times in 5,668 Posts
olygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote September 26th

As long as children grow up in a nurturing loving environment, I don't care if the parents are gay or not.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank olygirl for this useful post:
  #77  
Old 11.09.2021, 20:47
ennui's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Kt Zurich
Posts: 1,179
Groaned at 36 Times in 28 Posts
Thanked 3,630 Times in 1,270 Posts
ennui has a reputation beyond reputeennui has a reputation beyond reputeennui has a reputation beyond reputeennui has a reputation beyond reputeennui has a reputation beyond reputeennui has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote September 26th

Quote:
View Post
An opinion, that for a kid’s wellbeing, to be raised by own mother and father is equal as by two strangers looks really odd to me.
But that‘s not necessarily the comparison….could be adoptive vs adoptive, or one biological different vs same sex.
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 11.09.2021, 20:55
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 32,723
Groaned at 2,628 Times in 1,870 Posts
Thanked 39,831 Times in 18,788 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote September 26th

Quote:
View Post
could be adoptive vs adoptive, or one biological different vs same sex.
What on earth does that mean?
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 11.09.2021, 21:07
ennui's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Kt Zurich
Posts: 1,179
Groaned at 36 Times in 28 Posts
Thanked 3,630 Times in 1,270 Posts
ennui has a reputation beyond reputeennui has a reputation beyond reputeennui has a reputation beyond reputeennui has a reputation beyond reputeennui has a reputation beyond reputeennui has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Vote September 26th

Quote:
View Post
What on earth does that mean?
The other poster was comparing biological heterosexual parents to same sex adoptive (hence strangers), and I think it is just one possible comparison and not exactly a fair comparison. In an adoptive Situation, potential parents could be heterosexual or same sex. If the parents are in a stable, loving relationship, I think same sex should be allowed to adopt as well as heterosexual.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank ennui for this useful post:
  #80  
Old 11.09.2021, 21:10
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: Zurich
Posts: 12
Groaned at 3 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 11 Times in 5 Posts
Humanoid has no particular reputation at present
Re: Vote September 26th

Quote:
View Post
As others have pointed out, for many against it's not about the marriage, it's about same sex adoption.

As there will be children involved and affected it's simply not good enough to 'look away and move on'.
Your point of view seems to be rather narrow-minded.
Are there gay couples that are unfit to be parents? Absolutely, just as there are straight couples that shouldn't be allowed to raise children. But do all, 100% of gay couples deserve to be denied the possibility of adoption without even considering their specific scenario (in which case they would go thorough far more scrutinizing legal procedure than any heterosexual couple does)?

Not without strong evidence of possible peril to children, which as far as I know, does not exist.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank Humanoid for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
22nd September 2013: Ticino and the Burka ban vote Sean Connery Swiss politics/news 738 07.07.2014 13:05
Vote in September for new epidemie laws omtatsat Daily life 128 21.08.2013 17:17
Anybody travelling from Zurich to Geneva/Lyone tomorrow - 26th September samofsydney Transportation/driving 0 25.09.2009 15:01
Anyone fany going for a Doggy outing on Saturday 26th September [ZH] Guest Pet corner 1 24.09.2009 12:12
Canton Zurich: Smoking Vote September 28 AbFab Swiss politics/news 246 07.10.2008 23:22


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:18.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0