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Old 13.09.2021, 17:50
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Here's an article by Tagesanzeiger (no paywall but in German).
Translation by deepl below, however the chart alone makes the link worth opening.
The text is available as audiobook in German, link is in the article.

--------------------------

Adoption? Better not
The number of adopted children in Switzerland is falling dramatically. Why is that?

The list is long and high-profile: Madonna, Angelina Jolie, Charlize Theron, Halle Berry, Sharon Stone, Meg Ryan, Sandra Bullock and Hugh Jackman - they have all adopted children, and some of them have even done so with great publicity. But while celebrities can act as mouthpieces for a particular cause in many ways, the publicity effect is absent in the case of adoption: In Switzerland, it is rarer than ever.

At the beginning of the 1980s, around 1600 children from Switzerland and abroad found a new home here each year. Today, there are 363. And if you look closely at the figures, two thirds of them are stepchild adoptions: mainly men adopting their partner's children (women adopting their partners' children only happened three times in 2016). That leaves 143 adoptions - even though, according to Unicef estimates, there are 143 million orphans worldwide.

Their placement is made more difficult by, of all things, an international treaty that is supposed to do good: the Hague Convention for the Protection of Children. Ratified by Switzerland in 1993, it stipulates, among other things, that adoption abroad is only permissible if no place can be found in the country of origin. Certain countries, says Karin Meierhofer, executive director of the organisation Pflege- und Adoptivkinder Schweiz (Pach), are "too". The official Swiss placement agencies for India, Vietnam, Ethiopia, Morocco and Colombia, for example, no longer accept new dossiers from couples willing to adopt. In addition, more and more children are no longer of infant age or are in poor health, which makes their placement even more difficult.

[long-term chart, adoptions per year
- "StiefEltern" is a stepparent married to the biological mother/father
- "EhePaar" is a married couple
- "EinzelPerson" is a single person]

In Switzerland, children available for adoption are rare; the stigma of being a single or underage mother, for example, has been removed, and abortion has been legalised. In 2016, Pach placed just 16 local babies in German-speaking Switzerland.

Those who still want to try need a lot of patience. Couples have to be patient for up to four years, have countless conversations, and be put through their paces. While everyone else can become parents just like that, adoptive parents have to complete a fitness marathon until they receive the title of "officially approved educators", so to speak. This, says Meierhofer, is true, but not always pleasant. The costs are also considerable: up to 50,000 francs can be spent on obtaining foreign documents, permits, applications, translations, travel and placement fees. However: reproductive medical treatment can also take time, the costs can also amount to several tens of thousands of francs, plus the physical strain on the woman. Nevertheless, according to the Federal Statistical Office, 6055 women took advantage of "medically assisted" reproductive treatment in 2015. Meanwhile, every fiftieth child is born thanks to artificial insemination.

The dramatic decline in adoptions may therefore not only have to do with external factors. It also has to do with prejudice. Whenever the subject comes up in a discussion, someone always has a story to tell about how the adopted cousins or the adopted children of a friend simply couldn't cope with life despite the warmth at home. You buy a pig in a poke, they say, you don't know what traumas the children have experienced and even less what genes are involved that even the most loving upbringing can do nothing about.

Hardly any differences in development

The cliché persists. Yet the data is unclear. Studies around the world contradict each other: in Sweden, the conclusion was that adopted children had difficulties more often; in Denmark, the opposite was true. The most recent US study from 2015 speaks of the "adoption paradox", i.e. that couples who adopt children have above-average education and wealth and also take above-average care of them, but their children nevertheless fail more often, both academically and interpersonally.

The study conducted by Thomas Gabriel and Samuel Keller of the ZHAW Social Work Institute on behalf of the Canton of Zurich since 2009 came to a different conclusion: the development of adopted and biological children hardly differed, and the former were even less anxious. And: the age at which the child comes into its new family plays almost no role. The positive findings are probably also related to the so-called honeymoon phase of the first years. The final results will show more details at the beginning of 2018.

The child's biography is the key

The differences in the research situation, explains Thomas Gabriel, head of the Institute for Childhood, Youth and Family at the ZHAW, stem from the fact that the initial situation in each country is completely different: "In England, children are mainly adopted from institutions, in Switzerland there are more foreign or kinship adoptions. It changes the situation enormously whether the child previously lived in a home for a long time, comes from abroad or moves from parents to close relatives."

Understanding the child's biography, Gabriel says, is often key. If, for example, a child who has lived in a home for a long time behaves conspicuously at mealtimes, this could indicate that he or she used to have to assert himself or herself at the table. At the same time, this knowledge and this interpretation are also the greatest danger: because parents - like the entire environment - hastily attribute every behaviour of the child to its adoption. Even if it behaves as impossibly as its peers - for example during puberty - many of its behaviours are justified by factors that cannot be influenced.

Uprooting has lifelong consequences

There is indeed a lack of clarity in this regard. However, two things are now very well known: firstly, that adoption is not necessarily the best thing for a child, even if it comes from a third world country: Because uprooting has consequences, usually for a lifetime. Almost all adopted children are looking for their biological parents, there is this deep longing to know where you come from. That's why experts don't appreciate the baby hatch: its purpose is precisely to guarantee the mother's anonymity - which makes it impossible for the child to ever know who its parents are. This absolute lack of knowledge, says Karin Meierhofer, is a risk factor, because we know that the possibility of contacting the birth parents helps in the search for identity.

Then, secondly, what open-minded, committed couples said to each other in the eighties - "There are enough children who are not well, why should we bring our own into the world if we can help?" - is no longer considered sufficient as a motivation. The "rescue idea", says Thomas Gabriel, is not desirable from a professional point of view: "What is good for a child according to our Western view is not necessarily transferable to all other regions of the world." Children should not be a project, says Karin Meierhofer. Adoptive parents should be aware that they could face a number of additional problems.

In contrast to birth parents, they are usually better prepared, at least in theory. The long preparation forces them to deal intensively with their role. What they do not expect, however, is rejection from their environment. Thomas Gabriel says that parents-in-law and parents often reject the idea, which is enormously stressful. And there is also open hostility, as when a couple with a dark-skinned toddler is asked at the Migros checkout "how much the little one cost".

The celebrity adoptions staged by the media are not innocent of this. When Madonna travels to Malawi with a group of people to receive a girl, it really does have the unpleasant effect of her going on a shopping spree. The supposed commitment does not have the effect of increasing acceptance that one would wish for the 143 million orphans.
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  #122  
Old 13.09.2021, 18:03
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Remember that Tagesanzeiger is center left to alt left, this is not some rightwing outlet.
What was left wing 15 years ago may well be alt-right today.
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  #123  
Old 13.09.2021, 18:05
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Re: Vote September 26th

I see it more along the lines of removing the stigma.

Legally and technically everybody has the same right, even if in reality it probably won't happen very much or often.

A bit like letting women join the army in combat roles. In reality very few women actually want this, but for the few that genuinely do it makes a huge difference. So why not?
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  #124  
Old 13.09.2021, 18:08
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Re: Vote September 26th

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What was left wing 15 years ago may well be alt-right today.
Tagesanzeiger on the right? Nahh.

But they're definitely alt left WRT ideologies like toxic 3rd wave feminism and woketivism.

ETA:
However, I agree that some issues have competely shifted to the opposite of the political spectrum. Not just that, but even massive socio-economic disadvantages and cutbacks due to one's opinion. Free speech and all that derives therefrom including daring to speak up against any of the issues sacred to the lefties, etc. There are lots of excellent examples for this in this thread alone.

As for your "why not?", one major reason is outlined above. The children have neither voice nor the right to be heard.

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  #125  
Old 13.09.2021, 19:44
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Re: Vote September 26th

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A bit like letting women join the army in combat roles. In reality very few women actually want this, but for the few that genuinely do it makes a huge difference. So why not?
The big difference though, women in army combat roles doesn't affect children.
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  #126  
Old 13.09.2021, 20:38
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Re: Vote September 26th

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There is no guarantee that the persons adopting will be 'two loving adults' though.
This is a valid issue in both instances though i.e. heterosexual or gay couples.

I don't really have an educated opinion on adoption, just saying.
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  #127  
Old 13.09.2021, 21:00
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Can you see it from a perspective of a child adopted by gays who one day realizes that he/she could have been equally adopted by hetero couple?
I personally believe that if the child was loved and nurtured, they wouldn't care if their parents were gay or not. Your assumption is based on a biased belief. Children are not born with biases; they aquire them through conditioning.

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Who can decide to play god in such situations?
Let's leave God out of it.
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  #128  
Old 13.09.2021, 21:07
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Re: Vote September 26th

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I personally believe that if the child was loved and nurtured, they wouldn't care if their parents were gay or not. .
I am not so sure. They probably wouldn't, it's the society that will take care-make sure to remind them that their household is an "issue"... I am afraid we are not that evolved as a whole-species and that their path won't be a smooth one because, well...."society". Humans. Cruel ones. But again, what do I know.
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  #129  
Old 13.09.2021, 22:57
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Re: Vote September 26th

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I personally believe that if the child was loved and nurtured, they wouldn't care if their parents were gay or not. Your assumption is based on a biased belief. Children are not born with biases; they aquire them through conditioning.
I disagree. I do think children can be born with some biases but these can be overcome and new ones created by environment, education etc.

i think it is pretty clear for example that like or dislike of certain foods can be due to evolutionary programming, but experience and development can change these preferences. Or for example, fear of spiders and snakes may have evolutionary roots going back to when our ancestors were monkeys and when poisonous bites were a major cause of death. But as humans living in places where such creatures are mostly harmless, some of us can overcome these fears whereas others have more difficulty.

There have always been cases where children were raised by a single parent or by individuals or groups of individuals who were not necessarily the child's biological parents and may have been of the same sex or different sexes. Furthermore one's parents are not one's only adult role models. Children are also influenced by grandparents, aunts, uncles, teachers, whatnot. As they say, "it takes a village to raise a child". So plenty of exposure to different role models.

i thus don't see having two parents of the same sex as being a problem.
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  #130  
Old 13.09.2021, 23:44
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Children are not born with biases; they aquire them through conditioning.
BS... my son's first word was "auto" , he is obsessed with mechanical objects. I was the same - my own mother recently related the story of their efforts to get me to play with my sister's dolls as a child - immediately threw them away.

I work with a Swedish lad - he's absolutely committed to raising his children in a gender neutral way and constantly expresses his frustration to me that his son refuses to wear pink or play with dolls.
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  #131  
Old 14.09.2021, 14:19
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Re: Vote September 26th

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I personally believe that if the child was loved and nurtured, they wouldn't care if their parents were gay or not.
Some kids would probably prefer having a mum and dad. It seems like a social experiment using children.
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  #132  
Old 14.09.2021, 14:46
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Some kids would probably prefer having a mum and dad. It seems like a social experiment using children.
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There is no guarantee that the persons adopting will be 'two loving adults' though.
Some kids would give anything just to get away from the parent or parents or substitutes for parents (be they grandparents or social workers in an orphanage, or anyone else), because they do not provide proper care, let alone a loving home.

There is, as you say, no guarantee that the persons adopting will be one, or two, loving adults.

Oddly enough, there's even less guarantee that the biological parents will be two loving adults. This because at least some of those biological parents didn't intend or plan to have children, but resigned themselves to it, once the pregnancy occurred.

Adoptive parents, on the other hand, have at least gone through a considerable process in which they've been challenged to think about what they're doing, and usually some sort of assessment, from outside, (in Switzerland the procedures are complex and very strict) about whether they're likely to be fit for the role.
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  #133  
Old 14.09.2021, 15:08
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Re: Vote September 26th

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The exception being “High school graduation rates among children of same-sex households”, which shows that children of same-sex couples were 65% as likely to graduate compared to to children living in opposite sex marriage families. This study is not open-access, so I can’t judge much.[/LIST]
It is available here:
https://terpconnect.umd.edu/~pnc/allen-ss-grad.pdf
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  #134  
Old 14.09.2021, 15:15
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Re: Vote September 26th

I am new here, so just raising the Question - it is obvious that Marriage will PASS, no ?

If you take the % of Foreigners here which probably all are for it, then take the % of Locals who say YES, how many Conservatives are left against it?

Am I wrong?

The 1st Question, well, I do not have Dividends, no Real Estate.. So I will not give my thought about it.

Just an Anecdote - I have a Gay Couple Friends here, they are Germans, and as they could not get married here, they went there, married, and then made some Trip, bla bla, time passed.. When they returned to CH a Letter was waiting for them from the FinanzAmt that now they will need to pay higher Taxes....
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  #135  
Old 14.09.2021, 15:37
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Never understand all these caffufles over such pathetic arguments. IF you dont like it look away and move on. If a Gay couple live next door or a woman with a Burka as long as they dont bother you whats the big deal. I know plenty of heterosexual couples who shouldn't be left near children so dont see that Gay couples are different to any cross section of society.
Are you serious? Look around where we live... I wish People just looked around. Just search the EF and see that People actually look on Balcony Lights, Garage Door, Windows opened, Garbage Bag in Balcony and on and on...

So they will see Gays and look aside?

I actually know a really nice Swiss Couple, so sweet, friendly and actually not so much Home due to their Travelling required Jobs, even though they get HELL from the Neighbour above them, who basically complaints with official Letters to the Real Estate Company about their Coffee Machine !, about their Door noise (exactly like his), about Washing Machine on dates they actually proved they were not Home and so on... There are in the sae Building some quite noisy Families, with them he has no issue whatsoever. Actually, after several Years, they decided to move "thanks" to him...
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  #136  
Old 14.09.2021, 15:40
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Re: Vote September 26th

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I am new here, so just raising the Question - it is obvious that Marriage will PASS, no ?

If you take the % of Foreigners here which probably all are for it, then take the % of Locals who say YES, how many Conservatives are left against it?

Am I wrong?
Foreigners do not have the right to vote in Swiss federal matters. Only Swiss citizens are permitted to vote.
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  #137  
Old 14.09.2021, 15:42
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Foreigners do not have the right to vote in Swiss federal matters. Only Swiss citizens are permitted to vote.
Ye, u know what I mean, right?

Many Foreigners are here long enough to have had their CH Pass.
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  #138  
Old 14.09.2021, 21:28
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Re: Vote September 26th

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Foreigners do not have the right to vote in Swiss federal matters. Only Swiss citizens are permitted to vote.
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Ye, u know what I mean, right?

Many Foreigners are here long enough to have had their CH Pass.
Those aren't foreigners, those are "Papierlischwizer" HTH
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  #139  
Old 14.09.2021, 21:44
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Re: Vote September 26th

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BS... my son's first word was "auto" , he is obsessed with mechanical objects. I was the same - my own mother recently related the story of their efforts to get me to play with my sister's dolls as a child - immediately threw them away.

I work with a Swedish lad - he's absolutely committed to raising his children in a gender neutral way and constantly expresses his frustration to me that his son refuses to wear pink or play with dolls.
I don’t see that as a bias but rather as a preference, perhaps even innately wired. What I don’t understand is how that would affect a child’s love for their parents.
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  #140  
Old 14.09.2021, 21:48
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Re: Vote September 26th

the arguments of the opponents

https://mannschaft.com/bimber/wp-con...15-364x205.jpg

https://ehefueralle-nein.ch/wp-conte...E-1170x858.jpg

https://cdn.unitycms.io/image/ocrope...9rGLmoYfLW.jpg

open for discussion
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