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Old 13.09.2021, 01:07
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Re: Switzerland's ICU Shortage and Hospital Closures

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Anybody know the number of ICU beds in 2019?.

According to Hans Pargger, the president of the "Zertifizierungskommission" of the "Schweizerischen Gesellschaft für Intensivmedizin", the body tasked with certifying all icu beds/stations in Switzerland, before the pandemic there were 866 icu beds. The same amount as now, in fact.
During the first wave, there were some overly optimistic estimates about how many emergency icu bedds could be created on the fly. Most of those beds never existed, but unfortunately showed up in the statistics touted during the first wave.
The relatively few icu beds actually created back then proved to be unsustainable in the long run, because it was mostly done by shifting personnel away from other duties like operations and overworking everyone. They tried to hire new qualified staff, but hardly managed to find any. So these emergeny beds were closed down again, as soon as the falling numbers of patients allowed.


https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/droht-e...n-198573236773

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  #42  
Old 13.09.2021, 02:56
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Re: Switzerland's ICU Shortage and Hospital Closures

For several years now, the shortage of nursing staff, and also in part in doctors, has been of growing concern in Switzerland. These issues predate Corona, but the conditions during Corona made them so much more visible.

In addition to the actual medical emergencies which intensified at the start of Corona, the working conditions of the staff were officially changed. Whereas before, there were regulations to define a maximum number of working hours before a certain minimum break was prescribed, and governing the way that overtime must be compensated for by time off work, at the start of the pandemic these rules were suspended. This considerably worsened the already poor working conditions of the medical staff. (I was told this by several nurses, although I don't seem to be able to find the BAG (?) Ordnance about it, and I don't know whether it is still in place.)

https://www.srf.ch/play/tv/kassenstu...7-5283b6736736
Kassensturz (7th September 2021)
Jedes fünfte Schweizer Akutspital mit zu wenig Pflegepersonal
Rund 20 Prozent der Schweizer Akutspitäler sind in der Pflege unterdotiert und arbeiten mit zu wenig Pflegepersonal. Die Folge: Sie können Patientinnen und Patienten keine optimale Pflege garantieren. Das zeigt eine Auswertung, die 'Kassensturz' und 'K-Tipp' exklusiv vorliegt. Pikant: Der Pflegenotstand herrschte gemäss der Auswertung bereits vor Corona – jetzt hat sich die Lage noch verschärft.
Every fifth Swiss acute hospital with too few nursing staff
Around 20 percent of Swiss acute hospitals do not have enough resources in terms of nursing care and work with too few nursing staff. The result: They cannot guarantee patients optimal care. This is shown by an evaluation that is available exclusively to 'Kassensturz' and 'K-Tipp'. Noteworthy: According to the evaluation, the emergency in lack of nursing staff already existed before Corona - now the situation has worsened.
The following is about wards in the large psychiatric clinics in Bern. Therefore, while not directly about ICU, the lack of nursing staff and doctors, overall, naturally affects wards of all kinds. Wherever things become too stressful, the nurses end up becoming ill from overwork, or they choose to reduce the number of hours they're prepared to work, or they leave and go to another hospital or Spitex in which they hope things will be better. Or else they leave the profession altogether.

https://www.telebaern.tv/telebaern-n...ssen-142528596 Telebärn (18th June 2021)
Zu wenig Fachkräfte: UPD muss Akutstation schliessen
The UPD clinic in Bern closed their acute psychiatric ward, due to lack of staff.

https://www.srf.ch/audio/regionaljou...ps?id=12048654 (2nd September 2021)
Psychiatrie im Kanton Bern: «Ein System kurz vor dem Kollaps»
Psychiatry in Canton Berne: "The system is about to collapse"
That's quite something: in the capital city of Switzerland, one of the richest countries in the world, hospital wards that are urgently needed are being closed, just closed, due to lack of staff!

https://www.unia.ch/de/aktuell/aktuell/artikel/a/16047 (25th June 2019)
More on the survery results of this and the subsequent survey, here:
https://www.unia.ch/de/arbeitswelt/v...pflegeumfragen
Laut der Umfrage der Unia vom letzten Winter [2018/2019 mit über 2800 Beteiligten] sehen sich 47 Prozent der Angestellten in der Langzeitpflege nicht bis zur Pensionierung im Beruf. Die Gründe: die Arbeitsbedingungen und die eigene Gesundheit. Diese Situation ist besorgniserregend. Die Unia will den Ursachen der Probleme auf den Grund gehen und führt deshalb eine Umfrage mit dem Fokus Stress und Gesundheit in der Pflege durch.
According to the Unia survey from last winter [2018/2019 with more than 2800 respondents], 47 percent of employees in long-term care do not see themselves at work until they retire. The reasons: the working conditions and your own health. This situation is worrying. Unia wants to get to the bottom of the causes of the problems and is therefore conducting a survey with the focus on stress and health in care.


And here's a projection for the future, about nurses needed:
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/need-fo...eport/46927578 (7th September 2021)
Need for healthcare staff set to rise steeply, says report
The number of healthcare and support staff in Switzerland has increased by 19% since 2012, but another 70,000 people will be needed by 2029, according to a report by the Swiss Health ObservatoryExternal link (OBSAN).
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/survey-...homes/46592696 (5th May 2021)
Survey highlights staff shortages in Swiss nursing homes
A new survey of healthcare staff at 118 nursing homes across the country found that the issue of finding suitable personnel is their biggest challenge.
Fewer than half of the 4,400 respondents said their care units were fully staffed.
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  #43  
Old 13.09.2021, 06:39
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Re: Switzerland's ICU Shortage and Hospital Closures

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Shortage of staff seems to be responsible for fewer beds and possible hospital closures.
I just would like to know why at the start of the pandemic, there were 1400 beds. Were they not fully staffed?

According to this the capacity has fallen from 3.95 per 100000 to 3.59 per 100000. That's roughly (pop. 8M), 320 to 290 beds.

Last edited by NotAllThere; 13.09.2021 at 09:23. Reason: Typo fixed
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  #44  
Old 13.09.2021, 07:06
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Re: Switzerland's ICU Shortage and Hospital Closures

3.59, not 5.59

Tom
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  #45  
Old 13.09.2021, 07:06
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Re: Switzerland's ICU Shortage and Hospital Closures

They did do a good thing last year when they gave some hospital tasks to military. And also a couple of more job redirections (e.g. Swiss to SBB).

I think part of the problem may have been giving away too much free money. As people who'd not have jobs were paid almost completely instead of being offered these jobs. Not everyone is suitable but that's a territory they could go into.

p.s. I am not saying don't support people, but maybe the boundary may be different so that more people are willing/encouraged to taking on some jobs
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  #46  
Old 13.09.2021, 07:19
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Re: EF is being discussed on Reddit

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According to current statistics by the BAG, some ICUs in Switzerland are full. Are you calling them liars? https://www.covid19.admin.ch/en/hosp-capacity/icu
According to that, NONE are full!

And most are non COVID.

Tom
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  #47  
Old 13.09.2021, 08:02
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Re: Switzerland's ICU Shortage and Hospital Closures

All this talk of staff shortages and throwing money at the problem - the answer is simple:

Vaccinate the remaining 48%…
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  #48  
Old 13.09.2021, 08:12
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Re: EF is being discussed on Reddit

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Just to additional staff? Employees will strike if they feel their underpaid and the unions will support them.
That will go down well, those caring staff are not caring at all. The staff on higher pay won't have open ended contracts as the skills shortage is only temporary.
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  #49  
Old 13.09.2021, 09:29
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Re: EF is being discussed on Reddit

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According to that, NONE are full!

And most are non COVID.

Tom
When occupancy gets too high, then the risk of there not being a bed available in an emergency (such as car accidents) can get unacceptable. A float is always needed. I'm no clinician but the 10 beds (5.5%) available in Zürich seems a little on the unsafe side.

Jura looks good at 66% occupancy. But that leaves 2 beds free.

I do wonder why non-covid occupancy is higher than 2019 availability...
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  #50  
Old 13.09.2021, 09:43
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Re: EF is being discussed on Reddit

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And you’re supplying silly answers and avoiding reality. ICU staff need to be trained properly or they’ll be a danger to their patients.

2. Many hospital staff are already from Germany because we offer higher salaries. We need more employees but they must be trained and speak the language.

3. See number 2
No, it's total non sense again.

You have no idea how long does it take to train ICU staff, in emergency situations like pandemic this process can be fast-tracked.

Germans have always been allowed to work in Swiss hassle free.

I'm talking about staff from India, China, Russia, North and South America. There are thousands experienced medical professionals across the globe that can be invited hassle free to CH.

Not a single politician here wants to do anything to address ICU shortages. That's bizzaare.

General public got sold the shortage news as this is the ultimate state of things, but it is not !
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  #51  
Old 13.09.2021, 09:44
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Re: EF is being discussed on Reddit

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That will go down well, those caring staff are not caring at all. The staff on higher pay won't have open ended contracts as the skills shortage is only temporary.
Actually, there’s been a shortage of staff that started pre-Covid. COVID has only made it worse.
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  #52  
Old 13.09.2021, 10:11
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Re: EF is being discussed on Reddit

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That will go down well, those caring staff are not caring at all. The staff on higher pay won't have open ended contracts as the skills shortage is only temporary.
On the contrary. As the links I posted above show, there has been a growing shortage of skilled nursing staff, in relation to the growing need for more nursing as the population ages, for some years, and this pre-dating the onset of Covid.

Covid - and specifically the need for ICU spaces - made the shortage more visible. But even if and when, through vaccination and/or a better understanding of how to manage Covid, fewer ICU beds become necessary, the problem of too little nursing staff looks likely to remain.

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I'm talking about staff from India, China, Russia, North and South America. There are thousands experienced medical professionals across the globe that can be invited hassle free to CH.
This, could it be implemented, and were it to be coupled with obligatory command of the local Swiss language, does, indeed, have the potential to alleviate the shortage. Given how Switzerland's permit laws work (and these in conjunction with bilateral agreements with the EU), it would require a major shift in how immigration is done. That, in Switzerland, if possible at all, is unlikely to be put into place, fast.
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Old 13.09.2021, 10:17
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Re: EF is being discussed on Reddit

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I do wonder why non-covid occupancy is higher than 2019 availability...
People were frightened to seek medical help last year, so rather than treat a condition early on, the condition has worsened. Had my wife's breast cancer screening had not been cancelled, the grade 3 tumour would have been found before it spread. Stage 1 cancer is easier to treat than stage 3 & has a way higher chance of living for 10 years, don't even look at 20 year survival rates of grade 3.
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  #54  
Old 13.09.2021, 10:19
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Re: EF is being discussed on Reddit

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Actually, there’s been a shortage of staff that started pre-Covid. COVID has only made it worse.
Could you provide a link to substantiate, it's not something I was aware of.
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Old 13.09.2021, 10:26
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Re: Switzerland's ICU Shortage and Hospital Closures

Whats the reasoning behind not merging this thread with the covid thread?

I am not yet bored enough to read through it all so maybe there is a reason.
It appears to be a split from the Reddit thread??
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  #56  
Old 13.09.2021, 10:27
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Re: EF is being discussed on Reddit

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People were frightened to seek medical help last year, so rather than treat a condition early on, the condition has worsened. Had my wife's breast cancer screening had not been cancelled, the grade 3 tumour would have been found before it spread. Stage 1 cancer is easier to treat than stage 3 & has a way higher chance of living for 10 years, don't even look at 20 year survival rates of grade 3.

I'm sorry to hear that FMF, hope all goes well for you both
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Old 13.09.2021, 10:28
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Re: Switzerland's ICU Shortage and Hospital Closures

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Whats the reasoning behind not merging this thread with the covid thread?

I am not yet bored enough to read through it all so maybe there is a reason.
It appears to be a split from the Reddit thread??
The majority of people in ICU do not have COVID, it was split from the Reddit thread by another member of the moderation team.
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  #58  
Old 13.09.2021, 10:32
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Re: EF is being discussed on Reddit

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Could you provide a link to substantiate, it's not something I was aware of.
See post 42

And wishing your family a clean bill of health ASAP
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  #59  
Old 13.09.2021, 10:39
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Re: Switzerland's ICU Shortage and Hospital Closures

Heaven forfend I ever have to be treated in an ICU but if it happens is there a process where I can demand not to be treated by a fast-tracked trainee?
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Old 13.09.2021, 10:40
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Re: EF is being discussed on Reddit

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People were frightened to seek medical help last year, so rather than treat a condition early on, the condition has worsened.
Makes sense, thanks. And sorry about your missus.
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