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Old 13.09.2021, 10:41
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Re: Switzerland's ICU Shortage and Hospital Closures

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Heaven forfend I ever have to be treated in an ICU but if it happens is there a process where I can demand not to be treated by a fast-tracked trainee?
I generally find the younger staff are more interested & care more.
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Old 13.09.2021, 10:41
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Re: Switzerland's ICU Shortage and Hospital Closures

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Heaven forfend I ever have to be treated in an ICU but if it happens is there a process where I can demand not to be treated by a fast-tracked trainee?
Sorry, no.
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  #63  
Old 13.09.2021, 10:43
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Re: Switzerland's ICU Shortage and Hospital Closures

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The majority of people in ICU do not have COVID, it was split from the Reddit thread by another member of the moderation team.
The split is about 60%/40%. If FMF is correct in his analysis (which seems highly plausible to me), there is a higher than normal ICU non-covid population due to delays in treatment/appointments/investigations last year.

Looking at historic figures, it looks like the breakdown is (approximately!)

40% - normal load
20% - covid delay
40% - covid patients

While it's true that the majority of patients are non-covid, that still doesn't mean the covid serious sickness rate isn't... er... serious.
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Old 13.09.2021, 10:45
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Re: Switzerland's ICU Shortage and Hospital Closures

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Sorry, no.
He probably could, he would just have to wait until someone more experienced was available, triage would apply but would be placed nearer the bottom of the list due to being difficult & uncooperative.
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Old 13.09.2021, 10:46
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Re: Switzerland's ICU Shortage and Hospital Closures

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I generally find the younger staff are more interested & care more.
My experience also.
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Old 13.09.2021, 10:47
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Re: Switzerland's ICU Shortage and Hospital Closures

It's a big problem actually, particularly front-line nurses who do the 'grunt' work more than physicians and of course it pre-dates COVID. COVID like many other problems in society simply exposed those frailties

In short, they are underpaid, understaffed, overworked & suffering from burnout - I'm still in disbelief that male nurses, for example, continue to be paid more than the female colleagues. As has been the case for years, the Suisse do not form enough nurses for the population so they must recruit from abroad & the impression among staff is that authorities do not care about improving the situation as they will simply recruit others from abroad who are willing to work for better pay/conditions compared to their own countries - that formula worked more seamlessly during non-covid times

To put it in perspective, a cashier at Migros nearly makes as much as an ER or ICU nurse - let that sink in when you think about responsibility, stress, respect for the work you do during a pandemic. I can confirm that locally, many French nurses are nevertheless quitting as there was hope that the fissures that Corona exposed in the system would result in improvements but that has not come at all and they just continue to move from one wave of intensity to the next

Like many things during the pandemic, I have the impression the government is grossly underestimating how close things are to the breaking point

There's a votation coming in November to improve pay & form more nurses but it has to also be coupled with improving conditions, patient burden/overload, better hours/scheduling & gender equity for salary
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  #67  
Old 13.09.2021, 10:52
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Re: Switzerland's ICU Shortage and Hospital Closures

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I generally find the younger staff are more interested & care more.
Gross generalization. In fact, because training is inferior to years past younger nurses are less qualified/prepared for rigors of normal hospital work much less those of COVID

But the more they work, the more they are likely to succumb to the pressures/stresses of the job and that will invariably translate to less interest/care in the psychosocial aspects of the job that nurses traditionally have excelled in not to mention quitting/burnout

To be a nurse requires a particular profile, you have to want to help vulnerable people - now imagine that every day of your life, you can dip into that well of caring/interest for so long if there is no balance to keep it from being corrosive long-term
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  #68  
Old 13.09.2021, 11:39
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Re: Switzerland's ICU Shortage and Hospital Closures

One aspect of the nursing shortage problem is that there aren't many areas where fast tracking new nurses is safe, or easily implemented.

Skilled nursing, such as required in an ICU, cannot be fast tracked. It takes a great deal of education and experience to work in an ICU. doG forbid I ever need it, but I'd want the nurse, the person who does the majority of the care in an ICU, to know exactly what he or she is doing. An ICU is not a place to train from scratch.

Nursing has many highly specialised area - something that the general public don't seem to realise or respect. Which I suspect goes to the heart of the shortage - lack of respect, lack of acknowledgment that this is indeed a highly skilled profession. There needs to be something of a sea change in how we treat the nursing profession.

A short-ish 'nursing aid' course could be implemented to fill the ranks much farther downstream, perhaps allowing nurses skilled in other areas to train for ICU work. But that is at best a medium term solution, not a short term one.

As for throwing money at the problem:

Yes, low pay is a large part of the reason skilled experienced nurses are leaving the profession.

Sure, Switzerland pays better than some other countries - but still less than many skilled nurses deserve.

---

In the US a temporary solution has been the rise of traveling nurse contracts: Hospitals in need now are seeking nurses from all over the country to travel to their area, offering short term contracts at double or more the current wages. Plus hefty signing bonuses and housing. One of my nieces - the young lady who at the start of the pandemic volunteered to work at the hospital where she trained in NYC so slogged through the worst of it - is in such demand that now she can take her pick of where to go. She says that for the very highly skilled and experienced ICU nurse a traveling contract that prorates to 150K, or even for some 200K plus, is not unusual.

This has filled spots, sure. But it has created other problems. IIRC from an NYT article on the subject, what is happening is that once nurses in the in-need hospital see that their traveling colleagues earn twice what they do, many of the 'home' nurses also seek traveling contracts themselves... more or less just moving the problem around.

One can't fault skilled nurses for seeking better deals; this is perhaps their one historic chance to show the public, and thus Powers That Be, how important nurses are to the system, this is the only time they can really flex muscles to try for a better deal - and better working conditions, and more respect - longer term.

---

But money doesn't address another significant problem with long term ramifications: Burn out.

Nurses work incredibly hard, in conditions that most of us cannot even imagine.

One of the most poignant interviews I've read recently was with an ICU nurse somewhere in the US effected by the fourth wave surge. She had just come off a double shift, preparing herself mentally to do it all again tomorrow. She walked out of the hospital to see a covidiot protest. Her comment: "Why should I keep on caring so much, why should I risk my own health, when the people I will end up treating in another two weeks obviously don't?"

I can't imagine how nurses do it day in, day out. They deserve a better deal, one that reflects how very valuable they are to our society.

---
tl;dr: It's not an ICU bed problem, it's a much larger systemic problem with the way we treat the nursing profession, from recruitment to working conditions to pay. That needs to be addressed, and soon.
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  #69  
Old 13.09.2021, 11:56
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Re: Switzerland's ICU Shortage and Hospital Closures

@meloncollie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rn6w255CGkk
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Old 13.09.2021, 12:04
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Re: Switzerland's ICU Shortage and Hospital Closures

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She walked out of the hospital to see a covidiot protest.
You're delighting in using name-calling in a currently-peaceful discussion, without provocation.
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  #71  
Old 13.09.2021, 12:48
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Re: Switzerland's ICU Shortage and Hospital Closures

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You're delighting in using name-calling in a currently-peaceful discussion, without provocation.
I see. A nurse gives up

"Why should I keep on caring so much, why should I risk my own health, when the people I will end up treating in another two weeks obviously don't?"

And you complain about the use of the word "covidiot"? You relative values system is, I think, a little out of kilter. Or you're too easily triggered. It seems like reasonable provocation to me - it annoys me that the nurse was driven to this.
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Old 13.09.2021, 12:55
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Re: Switzerland's ICU Shortage and Hospital Closures

Because that statement from the nurse is false.

Interesting how people can type a ton of some pathetic stuff but for some reason not mention, how those same nurses/doctors were protesting being upset at the covid-vax-rules, that they also have to obey to the vax rule ...

Because for A YEAR they were talking care of covid patients and that was fine we were applauding them.. no funds went to that field to help them intead they even reduced funds/beds .. and now all of a sudden the patients have to be vaccinated and the nurses have to be also ?
Cant you see how ridiculous is this ? You dont have to agree but at least try to understand .
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Old 13.09.2021, 12:56
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Re: Switzerland's ICU Shortage and Hospital Closures

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I see. A nurse gives up

"Why should I keep on caring so much, why should I risk my own health, when the people I will end up treating in another two weeks obviously don't?"

And you complain about the use of the word "covidiot"? You relative values system is, I think, a little out of kilter. Or you're too easily triggered. It seems like reasonable provocation to me - it annoys me that the nurse was driven to this.
The amount of immunological naivety is falling fast across the continent. This won't be a significant factor much longer.

Before the pandemic a huge number of diseases were self inflicted so it's not entirely a new phenomenon.
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Old 13.09.2021, 13:08
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Re: EF is being discussed on Reddit

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People were frightened to seek medical help last year, so rather than treat a condition early on, the condition has worsened. Had my wife's breast cancer screening had not been cancelled, the grade 3 tumour would have been found before it spread. Stage 1 cancer is easier to treat than stage 3 & has a way higher chance of living for 10 years, don't even look at 20 year survival rates of grade 3.
I hope your wife gets the care that she needs and makes a swift recovery.
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Old 13.09.2021, 15:23
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Re: Switzerland's ICU Shortage and Hospital Closures

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It's a big problem actually, particularly front-line nurses who do the 'grunt' work more than physicians and of course it pre-dates COVID. COVID like many other problems in society simply exposed those frailties

In short, they are underpaid, understaffed, overworked & suffering from burnout - I'm still in disbelief that male nurses, for example, continue to be paid more than the female colleagues. As has been the case for years, the Suisse do not form enough nurses for the population so they must recruit from abroad & the impression among staff is that authorities do not care about improving the situation as they will simply recruit others from abroad who are willing to work for better pay/conditions compared to their own countries - that formula worked more seamlessly during non-covid times

To put it in perspective, a cashier at Migros nearly makes as much as an ER or ICU nurse - let that sink in when you think about responsibility, stress, respect for the work you do during a pandemic. I can confirm that locally, many French nurses are nevertheless quitting as there was hope that the fissures that Corona exposed in the system would result in improvements but that has not come at all and they just continue to move from one wave of intensity to the next

Like many things during the pandemic, I have the impression the government is grossly underestimating how close things are to the breaking point

There's a votation coming in November to improve pay & form more nurses but it has to also be coupled with improving conditions, patient burden/overload, better hours/scheduling & gender equity for salary
That's a good summary.

In a well run commercial organization key people get paid well in order to make them happy. It's such an easy thing to do with all the resources that the government has.

Not enough workers ? Fine, give visa free entry to qualified medical personal from outside of the EU. Lure them with $$$, pay relocation package to move whole family and etc. It's insanely easy, many countries did that in past, including the UK.
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Old 13.09.2021, 15:27
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Re: Switzerland's ICU Shortage and Hospital Closures

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That's a good summary.

In a well run commercial organization key people get paid well in order to make them happy. It's such an easy thing to do with all the resources that the government has.

Not enough workers ? Fine, give visa free entry to qualified medical personal from outside of the EU. Lure them with $$$, pay relocation package to move whole family and etc. It's insanely easy, many countries did that in past, including the UK.
This is already happening in Germany, an incredible amount of doctors, nurses and other medical professionals from the Balkans have left for Germany as it was super easy for them to find a job if they had a minimum language knowledge.

German medical professionals are leaving for Switzerland and other richer countries...
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Old 13.09.2021, 16:04
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Re: Switzerland's ICU Shortage and Hospital Closures

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German medical professionals are leaving for Switzerland and other richer countries...
I think that for doctors Switzerland is also much more easy going. Not sure as compared to Germany, but as compared to many countries Swiss doctors have a small number of patients per day, don't work very long hours and it is very difficult to sue them for wrongdoing.

No idea how it compares for nurses as don't know personally any...
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Old 13.09.2021, 16:16
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Re: Switzerland's ICU Shortage and Hospital Closures

These people are also stupid, dont understand math, or science... have mental diseases..dont understand how the hospital staff, nurses are under pressure with these antivaxxers...







https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-...urses-rcna1654

Last edited by roegner; 13.09.2021 at 16:17. Reason: Removing ad hominem, not funny
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Old 13.09.2021, 16:23
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Re: Switzerland's ICU Shortage and Hospital Closures

By the way: in my comment there was nothing ad hominem.

I will paraphrase it: Now EF members who know better how science funcitons, medical staff, nurses being angry at the anti-vaxxers can maybe give their input and knowledge to teach these people who work in hospitals and show them how they are wrong.
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Old 13.09.2021, 16:28
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Re: Switzerland's ICU Shortage and Hospital Closures

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By the way: in my comment there was nothing ad hominem.

I will paraphrase it: Now EF members who know better how science funcitons, medical staff, nurses being angry at the anti-vaxxers can maybe give their input and knowledge to teach these people who work in hospitals and show them how they are wrong.
I don't know If I understood your statement correctly. But ofc. they arent' doing anything wrong by leaving and give their two weeks notice. It's still a free country.
Wether it's reasonable/worth/necessary is another discussion.
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