Why Switzerland give up neutrality in this sanction against Russian - Page 7

Urs Max · #**121** 24.04.2022, 21:02

	Quote:	komsomolez
	If I understand correctly, this is not a direct sale but a veto on Germany redelivering to a party in conflict.

It's common practice nowadays that the recipient, Germany in this case, agrees to not sell or gift military stuff forward without the original seller's Ok. Usually that's not demanded for parts or components, but whole units including ammo as applies to this case. And yes, the reason for the No is that the recipient is involved in an armed conflict.

The UK OTOH was able to send anti-tank weapons containing Swiss made warheads to Ukraine without a Swiss Ok as these are only a part of the whole weapon.

Tom1234 · #**122** 24.04.2022, 23:12

	Quote:	Urs Max
	It's common practice nowadays that the recipient, Germany in this case, agrees to not sell or gift military stuff forward without the original seller's Ok. Usually that's not demanded for parts or components, but whole units including ammo as applies to this case. And yes, the reason for the No is that the recipient is involved in an armed conflict. The UK OTOH was able to send anti-tank weapons containing Swiss made warheads to Ukraine without a Swiss Ok as these are only a part of the whole weapon.

And they have to tread carefully as there's an on-going investigation by an NGO and Swiss journalists concerning Swiss weapons being used in war zones including Yemen.

Here

Urs Max · #**123** 25.04.2022, 00:40

	Quote:	Tom1234
	And they have to tread carefully as there's an on-going investigation by an NGO and Swiss journalists concerning Swiss weapons being used in war zones including Yemen. Here

I think it's unavoidable that some arms get in unintended hands as long as they're delivered to not-so-stable countries. Even mostly friendly and stable countries, see Ukraine before the war.

The question isn't "if" but "what's the likelihood for how many".
There can be no certainty when weapons are in use for many decades. I know quite a few who still have their (potentially fully automatic) military rifle that was introduced 65 years ago, some shoot with it at least once a year.

The US forces will buy up to 250'000 SIG guns, rifles and light machine guns, plus ammunition, spread over the next 10 years (cost some $2bln). Combine that with a scenario like Afghanistan - yikes, thens of thousands left behind. And of course there's no way to punish the US if they were to decide that Ukraine puts them to much better use.

Treverus · #**124** 25.04.2022, 14:50

	Quote:	Tom1234
	And they have to tread carefully as there's an on-going investigation by an NGO and Swiss journalists concerning Swiss weapons being used in war zones including Yemen. Here

	Quote:	Urs Max
	I think it's unavoidable that some arms get in unintended hands as long as they're delivered to not-so-stable countries. Even mostly friendly and stable countries, see Ukraine before the war.

Common... the example in Toms post is a Pilatus plane. The entire continent of Africa knows them as "poor man's airforce"... and while Pilatus claims that the fix points under the wings can be used for tons of legitimate purposes... the customers seem to somehow always use them for bombs. Yes, even if the original buyer signed some document to agree to only use the planes for "training". Some years ago was the a small, fast forgotten media "scandal" when the company claimed to have offered "trainer planes" to Iraq while the official RFQ was asking for "anti insurgent ground support planes".

Of course can some small guns once delivered to a countries police end up in a civil war... but its not exactly a secret that the Swiss industry have for decades used the same rather obvious ways to circumvent the official ban.

Urs Max · #**125** 25.04.2022, 18:24

Taking the context into account of CH effectively blocking Germany's Marder exports to Ukraine, what's your point?
Are you saying stuff like that should have happened much earlier?

Treverus · #**126** 25.04.2022, 18:37

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Taking the context into account of CH effectively blocking Germany's Marder exports to Ukraine, what's your point?

The point is that the same SVP people who now claim that Switzerland has for centuries been neutral and never EVER would supply munitions... are the exact same folks who have for decades supported the military industry of this country whenever there were deals to be made.

The long story short is: When there was money to be made was the law no problem. But already paid weapons gifted to Ukraine? No money to be made, so suddenly do morals count...

Urs Max · #**127** 25.04.2022, 20:09

Okok, I get it. You just need a round of abusing your favorite punching bag the SVP, and blame them for whatever irks you while you ignore the role of other groups. Apparently a 25% minority is enough to rule the country in a dictatorial fashion.

Go ahead, be my guest.

NotAllThere · #**128** 25.04.2022, 21:00

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Apparently a 25% minority is enough to rule the country in a dictatorial fashion..

It has ever been thus.

JimmyB · #**129** 25.04.2022, 21:28

	Quote:	Treverus
	Well, we clearly disagree, but somehow both manage to do so in a friendly and respectful way. Which I think is different from how Chuff and Hausamsee have treated the OP. Simple as that. One thing I find remarkable about this conflict is the tribal behaviour it shows... people have very little balanced discussions, the world is separated in good and evil and everyone who is not openly pledging to be a friend is a foe. Which is sort of the topic of this thread...

Hi - new here - but interesting thread. I too thought the OP got pretty short shrift. However... and I think this is relevant: the OP is apparently Chinese, and posted straight up Chinese state propaganda on the Swiss response to the Ukraine war ("aren't the Swiss worried about the impact on their banking").

That's really not subtle. It wouldn't be polite in my first post, so I won't ask the OP if they are being paid to post that stuff.

So a little beligerance in response is perhaps unfortunate. But pointing out the 100% alignment of the question and the Chinese state propaganda playbook seems entirely reasonable.

Tom1234 · #**130** 25.04.2022, 22:03

	Quote:	Urs Max
	Okok, I get it. You just need a round of abusing your favorite punching bag the SVP, and blame them for whatever irks you while you ignore the role of other groups. Apparently a 25% minority is enough to rule the country in a dictatorial fashion. Go ahead, be my guest.

It would need looking into more so I`ll pose it as a question -

How many initiative-based law changes have been tweaked to be more suited to an SVP narrative before being put to a public vote?

Axa · #**131** 28.04.2022, 12:59

Have you cleaned up your bomb shelter and filled it up with toilet paper? M. Poutine will not like this

I'm a bit surprised because at the end of last year I remember names and faces from the last election for CH Nationalrat. At the time I thought: Aargau Greens? Ahhh, the youth is full of hope. Now I'm curious about what happened and how the Aargau Green is the president of Swiss Nationalrat (Lower house of representatives). And grab your......popcorn since Swiss Foreign Minister/President of the Bundesrat was invited/challenged to visit Ukraine.

Anyway, I'm sure there's already a reaction from rancid guys saying "Napoleon kicked our ** and showed us the neutral way, the Swiss way".

	Quote:
	President of the National Council Irène Kälin was the first Swiss politician to meet Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky on Wednesday. On the short trip to Ukraine, the Swiss delegation encountered great destruction and much gratitude. The rattling of the train was the only thing that the Swiss delegation around the President of the National Council Irène Kälin (35, Greens) noticed while driving through Ukraine at night. The windows of the night train were taped or covered with blinds. A safety measure so that the train does not offer an attack target. Before leaving, Kälin summed up her feelings about starting the journey with a queasy feeling and great respect. The closer you got to the capital Kyiv, so it seemed, the greater the queasy feeling that she and her fellow travelers felt. "It won't be easy," said SP faction leader Roger Nordmann (49) sitting on the bed in the sleeping car. In addition to Nordmann and his National Council colleagues Yves Nidegger (64, SVP) and Nik Gugger (51, EPP), the Swiss Ambassador to Ukraine, Claude Wild (58), and his Ukrainian counterpart in Switzerland, Artem Rybchenko (38), also accompanied the Aargau Greens on a short visit to the war zone. After about ten hours by train, Kälin and her companions arrived in Kyiv. The Swiss delegation had traveled to the country at war at the invitation of the Speaker of the Ukrainian Parliament. The program had to be continuously adjusted. Until the early afternoon it was unclear whether Kälin would also meet Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky (44). The two finally shook hands that afternoon, on the sidelines of a meeting with local authorities. During the brief meeting, Zelensky expressed his gratitude for Switzerland's solidarity. "And of course we expressed how proud we are of the Ukrainians," said Kälin afterwards to Blick. Zelensky is an "extraordinary hero in these times" and despite everything "a simple person, not at all aloof". For Kälin, a visit to Ukraine is the least that can be done at the moment to show support. The President of the National Council also called on Federal President and Foreign Minister Ignazio Cassis (61) to travel to Ukraine. "I found it incredibly valuable to talk to the speaker of the parliament, and I think it would also be valuable for our foreign minister to meet his counterpart in Ukraine."

https://www.blick.ch/politik/reporta...d17441364.html

komsomolez · #**132** 11.08.2022, 14:13

Russia says Swiss 'no longer neutral', can't act as go-between with Ukraine

Russia said on Thursday it had turned down a Swiss offer to represent Ukrainian interests in Russia and Moscow's interests in Ukraine because it no longer considers Switzerland a neutral country.

Switzerland has a long diplomatic tradition of acting as an intermediary between countries whose relations have broken down, but Foreign Ministry spokesperson Ivan Nechayev said this was not possible in the current situation.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ne-2022-08-11/

Jim2007 · #**133** 11.08.2022, 14:43

	Quote:	komsomolez
	Russia says Swiss 'no longer neutral', can't act as go-between with Ukraine Russia said on Thursday it had turned down a Swiss offer to represent Ukrainian interests in Russia and Moscow's interests in Ukraine because it no longer considers Switzerland a neutral country. Switzerland has a long diplomatic tradition of acting as an intermediary between countries whose relations have broken down, but Foreign Ministry spokesperson Ivan Nechayev said this was not possible in the current situation. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ne-2022-08-11/

There are times you can no longer be neutral and this is one of them. Nobody gives a crap what Russia thinks. When the want to talk the won't be shy about coming forward.

Axa · #**134** 19.08.2022, 13:02

We still don't know why Switzerland gave up neutrality. However, it's sure Switzerland broke Russia's heart:

	Quote:
	August 17, 2022 - Russia “really hadn’t anticipated” Switzerland aligning itself with EU sanctions in March, according to a former Russian diplomat to the UN in Geneva. The Russians had hoped Switzerland would remain a “haven for Russian business – legal or not”, Boris Bondarev said in an interviewExternal link with Le Temps newspaper on Wednesday. “It was very naive, but that’s really how it happened.” Bondarev resigned in May in protest at Russia’s war in Ukraine. He is currently in Switzerland.

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/diploma...ness-/47832554

Elu · #**135** 19.08.2022, 13:38

	Quote:	Axa
	We still don't know why Switzerland gave

Let's hope it's because we have learned some lessons from our past

Jim2007 · #**136** 19.08.2022, 13:52

	Quote:	Axa
	We still don't know why Switzerland gave up neutrality.

It's called dealing with reality, sitting on the sideline and paying your way out, while other fight the fight is not longer acceptable. It's the same reason that Ireland and Sweden are part of the EU's Nordic battle group and committed like every other member of the EU to come to the assistance of every other member state. It's why the Irish government agreed to the request of the French government to send troops to free up French troop that were on UN duties after the terrorist attacks, why the USAF are allowed to use Shannon and so on.

Axa · #**137** 09.01.2023, 12:52

And we enter the silly phase. CH enforcing road traffic laws is Russophobic. Bye bye Swiss neutrality /s

	Quote:
	Bernese are annoyed by Russian bully diplomats Residents in Bern's embassy district are dissatisfied. Russian diplomats would not adhere to Swiss norms. The head of the Russian Embassy teases back.

https://www.20min.ch/story/anwohner-...n-149972795046

jacklocika · #**138** 09.01.2023, 23:05

"The residents of the embassy quarter are now demanding that Russia downsize its diplomatic staff. However, Russia is unlikely to respond to this demand. "

This is brilliant.