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  #1721  
Old 21.07.2010, 11:36
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Re: Financial Crisis Bank News [was: How Safe is UBS?]

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Spot on. The RMBS ('financial innovation' ) were the major cause of the crisis - the IBs even set up & owned all the mortgage originators and built a vertical supply chain!

They're still using their politicians to steal everyone else's money; they're now doing it with the spread between IRs and loan rates;

"What the average citizen doesn’t explicitly understand is that a significant part of the government’s plan to repair the financial system and the economy is to pay savers nothing and allow damaged financial institutions to earn a nice, guaranteed spread" - Bill Gross, co-CIO, Pimco.
Yeah, not that I'm saying that the regular banks and building societies didn't act stupidly in the the credit boom - they did, as evidenced by the loan books of the likes of RBS, HBOS and B&B in the UK. Plus thanks to the repeal of Glass-Steagall many of the regular commercial banks had an investment bank operation too.

What really sticks in the throat is the way that the governments have chosen to respond - hand the banks massive amounts of bailout cash (TARP), multi hundreds of billions back-door bailouts (AIG), unlimited liquidity from central banks at next to zero interest (while the banks loan it on at much higher rates and leverage it), print money like crazy (thus devaluing people's savings and earnings) and ripping off savers with low base rates designed to let banks further maximise profits.

Then, when said recipients of social aid make big 'profits' (because the government has used public money to make sure they do) they reward themselves with massive bonuses for their 'performance'.

Any other private business would go bankrupt because of their bad business decisions - this lot get so much social aid that their biggest danger is getting crushed under the mountains of public money thrust upon them.
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  #1722  
Old 21.07.2010, 11:47
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Re: Financial Crisis Bank News [was: How Safe is UBS?]

UK government didn't 'give' the banks any money, the lent them money with stings attached and at high rates, or nationalised the banks for a bargain basement price. IIRC all the banks that took the uk governments money have now paid it back, and they stand to make a hell of a lot of money with the shares they own in the others.

What would have happened to london, and so the whole of the uk, had the banks been allowed to fall?? other banks would have cherry picked the good bits, left the bad bits, thousands of people would lose there jobs directly, hundreds of thousands indirectly, all having to claim benefits so a double hit, no tax income and a massive benefits payout.

The people getting the bonuses have (for the most part) made there banks a hell of a lot of money, if there bank doesn't pay them then someone else will. I though open season on bankers had finally blown over, I guess various governments still need a whipping boy to defelct from there own cockups.
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  #1723  
Old 21.07.2010, 14:51
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Re: Financial Crisis Bank News [was: How Safe is UBS?]

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UK government didn't 'give' the banks any money, the lent them money with stings attached and at high rates, or nationalised the banks for a bargain basement price. IIRC all the banks that took the uk governments money have now paid it back, and they stand to make a hell of a lot of money with the shares they own in the others.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...t-1833830.html

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Government support for Britain's banks has reached a staggering £850bn and the eventual cost to taxpayers will not be known for years, the public spending watchdog says today.
..
The commitments include buying £76bn of shares in Royal Bank of Scotland and the Lloyds Banking Group; indemnifying the Bank of England against losses incurred in providing more than £200bn of liquidity support; guaranteeing up to £250bn of wholesale borrowing by banks to strengthen liquidity; providing £40bn of loans and other funding to Bradford & Bingley and the Financial Services Compensation Scheme; and insurance cover of over £280bn for bank assets.
Not to worry- that's what taxpayers are for. To make sure that private businesses who have been making extraordinary profits by taking stupid risks are indemnified from facing the consequences of their bets going bad


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What would have happened to london, and so the whole of the uk, had the banks been allowed to fall?? other banks would have cherry picked the good bits, left the bad bits, thousands of people would lose there jobs directly, hundreds of thousands indirectly, all having to claim benefits so a double hit, no tax income and a massive benefits payout.

Yep, bad businesses who have misallocated their capital failing and having their assets taken over by another business who will hopefully do a better job is part of the capitalist system. You know, the system that the 'rest' of us have to live in.

Of course, when it comes to bank losses we have a rather splendid implementation of socialism by the government.

Capitalism for everyone else that fails though - fail to pay your business loan and your company goes under. Don't pay back your mortgage and you lose your house.



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The people getting the bonuses have (for the most part) made there banks a hell of a lot of money, if there bank doesn't pay them then someone else will. I though open season on bankers had finally blown over, I guess various governments still need a whipping boy to defelct from there own cockups.
A hell of a lot of the banks (private businesses) were totally insolvent because of stupid decisions that they made. They were bailed out at enormous cost to the public (£850bn for the UK banks alone), underwritten by the taxpayer and financial policy has been stretched to its limits (Quantitative Easing, unlimited liquidity schemes, ZIRP) in order to facilitate their profitability.

The guys in the banks have indeed done well - making sure they have the right politicians in place to take the banks losses off their hands and dump them onto the taxpayer - so I guess they should give themselves a pat on the back and huge bonus for being so clever.
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  #1724  
Old 21.07.2010, 15:00
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Re: Financial Crisis Bank News [was: How Safe is UBS?]

ok, firstly its not cost 850bn, they have underwritten debts, that's not the same as giving out the cash, now unless every single debtor calls in the loans its actually cost 'us' nothing.

so, what would you have done? allowed some of the biggest employers and tax givers in the uk go under, have all there good bits bought by foreign banks for peanuts, have the overwhelmed benefits system have hundreds of thousands more claimants?
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  #1725  
Old 21.07.2010, 16:57
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Re: Financial Crisis Bank News [was: How Safe is UBS?]

I would have let the banks go. Then we'd have seen some people in jail for a start.

Why am I paying for all this mess - three times over? My savings are being devalued by low interest rates and high inflation, my taxes are being spent on bailing the banks out at the expense of drastic cuts in public services, and I can't get work because the economy is so depressed. Meanwhile, people whose high risk decisions and actions were a direct cause of the whole thing are still sitting pretty getting huge bonuses paid for by...wait, MY taxes. Sure, if you're on them and a complete c*nt, it's all good.

Open season on the bankers won't be finishing for a long time. Not even started yet. Wait until we've got 80s style riots all over Europe in a year or two, there will be lynch mobs. Fred the Shred hasn't seen nothing yet.

In the pubs I go to, people say banker instead of wanker now.
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  #1726  
Old 22.07.2010, 08:52
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Re: Financial Crisis Bank News [was: How Safe is UBS?]

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I would have let the banks go. Then we'd have seen some people in jail for a start.

Why am I paying for all this mess - three times over? My savings are being devalued by low interest rates and high inflation, my taxes are being spent on bailing the banks out at the expense of drastic cuts in public services, and I can't get work because the economy is so depressed. Meanwhile, people whose high risk decisions and actions were a direct cause of the whole thing are still sitting pretty getting huge bonuses paid for by...wait, MY taxes. Sure, if you're on them and a complete c*nt, it's all good.

Open season on the bankers won't be finishing for a long time. Not even started yet. Wait until we've got 80s style riots all over Europe in a year or two, there will be lynch mobs. Fred the Shred hasn't seen nothing yet.

In the pubs I go to, people say banker instead of wanker now.

well banker has all always been cockney rhyming slang for wanker, so nothing new there.

if you can't get work then how are they 'your' taxes?

riots all over europe?? not going to happen, its not the bankers who made governments spend billions they didn't have, employing huge amounts of extra public sector workers they didn't need to keep themselves in power.

If you really want something to get angry about then how about the public sector pension deficit in the uk, estimated to be 1.5 TRILLION and counting. kinda puts the banking 'blip' into perspective.

stop reading the daily mail and you'll be ok
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  #1727  
Old 22.07.2010, 17:32
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Re: Financial Crisis Bank News [was: How Safe is UBS?]

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well banker has all always been cockney rhyming slang for wanker, so nothing new there.

if you can't get work then how are they 'your' taxes?

riots all over europe?? not going to happen, its not the bankers who made governments spend billions they didn't have, employing huge amounts of extra public sector workers they didn't need to keep themselves in power.

If you really want something to get angry about then how about the public sector pension deficit in the uk, estimated to be 1.5 TRILLION and counting. kinda puts the banking 'blip' into perspective.

stop reading the daily mail and you'll be ok
I'm not a cockney; don't insult me. And it wasn't rhyming slang - the east end have a history of hating bankers, they have to share their city with them.

Just because I can't find work now doesn't mean I haven't worked solid for the last 18 years, and paid a shed load of taxes to boot. Doesn't mean I'm not still not paying taxes on other incomes I have, either.

Riots in Europe - its already started mate, not seen what's heppening in Greece and Spain, and we're nowhere near the worst part of this recession (double dip - leading to a possible depression), so believe it buddy, it's gonna get nasty.

I agree with you, there are too many public servants - know how many accountants and laywers there are now in the public sector? Not to mention the contracts PR and advertising executives get.

Hmmm, is this the pension deficit - mirrored in the private sector by the way, for example BA is a huge pension deficit with an Airline thrown in - caused by, er, the collapse in prices on stock and housing markets? Right...

I've never read Viz for kids in my life, thanks. You really know how to insult someone, don't you?
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  #1728  
Old 22.07.2010, 18:48
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Re: Financial Crisis Bank News [was: How Safe is UBS?]

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Your attempts to revise history a mere couple of years after it happened (and is indeed still unfolding) and portray the investment banks as victims of conventional retail banks leave me speechless.
Apparently not.
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  #1729  
Old 22.07.2010, 18:55
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Re: Financial Crisis Bank News [was: How Safe is UBS?]

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The crisis had everything to do with the antics of the investment banks.
Everything? Even you don't believe that Gav:

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Banks are supposed to use this power to allocate capital to productive enterprises. Instead, they've been playing the numbers game to dodge regulation and skim as much money out of the system for themselves as possible as well as making some pretty crazy bets.

When the bets don't pay off, the public has to bail them out because they are 'too big to fail'. We've seen trillions of dollars pumped into the system globally and after more than two years the banks are still dysfunctional and not lending to business ... with another liquidity crisis looming.

IMO the benefits that the banking system offers our economy are getting close to being outweighed by the costs it is imposing on us. Frankly, the current setup of the banking system leaves it looking like one gigantic parasite leeching the blood of the productive to give itself huge rewards whilst knowing that if it dies, it takes the host with it.
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  #1730  
Old 22.07.2010, 19:11
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Re: Financial Crisis Bank News [was: How Safe is UBS?]

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my taxes are being spent on bailing the banks out at the expense of drastic cuts in public services, and I can't get work because the economy is so depressed.
No, your public services are being cut because your government was living beyond it's means, mainly because of overspend on public services.

In fact, bank bail out costs are nothing compared to the taxes the Government top sliced off bank earnings over the years.
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  #1731  
Old 22.07.2010, 20:40
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Re: Financial Crisis Bank News [was: How Safe is UBS?]

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No, your public services are being cut because your government was living beyond it's means, mainly because of overspend on public services.

In fact, bank bail out costs are nothing compared to the taxes the Government top sliced off bank earnings over the years.
Interesting opinion, and evidently utter bollocks.

How about the overspend on the banks which overspent on shit investments and huge bonuses? How about the overspend on 2 wars?

Personally, I like my taxes going on Public services. Better to spend them on Public Transport (look at Switzerland) or Health or Education or Law and Order (Police and Jails - we need more of both) than bailing out banks or paying ludicrous bonuses to people who failed miserably at their jobs, or dropping Radioactive bombs on innocent civillians.
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  #1732  
Old 23.07.2010, 08:56
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Re: Financial Crisis Bank News [was: How Safe is UBS?]

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Interesting opinion, and evidently utter bollocks.

How about the overspend on the banks which overspent on shit investments and huge bonuses? How about the overspend on 2 wars?
You can't tell your debt from your deficit.
The Government's been wasting your money for decades.
With or without the financial crisis, it couldn't afford the Welfare State.

I agree with your point on bonuses by the way. Governments have been too soft. But if banks didn't pay bonuses, the Government wouldn't be able to tax them, which would increase it's deficit.
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  #1733  
Old 23.07.2010, 09:09
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Re: Financial Crisis Bank News [was: How Safe is UBS?]

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The Government's been wasting your money for decades.With or without the financial crisis, it couldn't afford the Welfare State.
My country could afford the welfare state. What it couldn't afford was polaris and all the other crap the US foisted on us .
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  #1734  
Old 23.07.2010, 09:12
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Re: Financial Crisis Bank News [was: How Safe is UBS?]

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Interesting opinion, and evidently utter bollocks.

How about the overspend on the banks which overspent on shit investments and huge bonuses? How about the overspend on 2 wars?

Personally, I like my taxes going on Public services. Better to spend them on Public Transport (look at Switzerland) or Health or Education or Law and Order (Police and Jails - we need more of both) than bailing out banks or paying ludicrous bonuses to people who failed miserably at their jobs, or dropping Radioactive bombs on innocent civillians.

again wars and over inflated public services have nothing to do with the banks. the uk government didn't give the banks a single penny, the LENT the banks money or bought the banks shares at bargain basement prices and have guaranteed the loans. When the gov sells the shares they have they will make a killing (a fact I have not seen any media outlet deny) the banks that borrowed the money (in return for gov having seats on the board) at high rates have paid it back, again a win for the gov.

These riots you speak of, are public service workers (tax takers) protesting that there gov can't afford them and asked them to take pay cuts, sorry but in the real world if a company can't afford staff then people get laid off. Again, nothing to do with banks!! there is only so long a gov can overspend by hundreds of billions per year before the house of cards topple over.

and still even if the worst case happens and the uk gov has to make good on all the bank guarantees its given (highly unlikely) the figures are still dwafed by the public sector pension deficit.

Your getting angry with the wrong people! just like the gov want you to.

(and no I'm not a banker, and I don't work for a bank either)
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  #1735  
Old 23.07.2010, 09:42
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Re: Financial Crisis Bank News [was: How Safe is UBS?]

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Open season on the bankers won't be finishing for a long time. Not even started yet. Wait until we've got 80s style riots all over Europe in a year or two, there will be lynch mobs. Fred the Shred hasn't seen nothing yet.

In the pubs I go to, people say banker instead of wanker now.
All that proves is that the politicians have successfully diverted blame away from themselves.

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Your getting angry with the wrong people! just like the gov want you to.
Agreed. And talking about bonuses, since when did the public sector get them?

First hit on Google for "uk public sector bonuses"

Bonuses for senior Home Office staff amid pay freeze

Quote:
The chancellor announced a public sector pay freeze in his Budget
Hundreds of thousands of pounds in bonuses are to be paid to Home Office staff amid a public sector pay freeze.
The general deal about entering the public sector used to be that the pay wasn't as good as the private sector, but this was compensated by job security and a decent pension. Under NL, public sector pay became as good as if not better than private sector pay. This has also exacerbated the public sector pension deficit.
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  #1736  
Old 23.07.2010, 11:01
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Re: Financial Crisis Bank News [was: How Safe is UBS?]

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again wars and over inflated public services have nothing to do with the banks. the uk government didn't give the banks a single penny, the LENT the banks money or bought the banks shares at bargain basement prices and have guaranteed the loans. When the gov sells the shares they have they will make a killing (a fact I have not seen any media outlet deny) the banks that borrowed the money (in return for gov having seats on the board) at high rates have paid it back, again a win for the gov.

As an example from today's papers:

UK taxpayer in line for £5bn profit from insuring banks' toxic assets.
British taxpayers stand to make a £5bn profit from insuring the toxic assets of RBS and Lloyds.

Source: Daily Telegraph
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  #1737  
Old 23.07.2010, 11:11
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Re: Financial Crisis Bank News [was: How Safe is UBS?]

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As an example from today's papers:

UK taxpayer in line for £5bn profit from insuring banks' toxic assets.
British taxpayers stand to make a £5bn profit from insuring the toxic assets of RBS and Lloyds.

Source: Daily Telegraph

I think some people will chose to ignore that lol

another quote from that article

"the Asset Protection Agency (APA) said it was now confident that it would be profitable for taxpayers who have not yet been called upon to put up a penny"

So not one single penny of 'your' tax money has been used, and the uk gov stands to make 5b at least just from insuring the bad debt, plus the tens of billions they will make selling the shares and in profit from the banks they own.

What a shit deal 'we' all got, those banks are really taking 'us' for everything.

bunch of bankers.

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  #1738  
Old 26.07.2010, 20:12
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Re: Financial Crisis Bank News [was: How Safe is UBS?]

Hmmm, you could be right. Perhaps there is a media conspiracy run by the US and UK governments to make us all believe it was somehow the banks fault when really it was nothing at all whatsoever to do with them, and in fact was the total ineptitude of said Governments. Not very convincing conspiracy however, seeing as we've had a change of governments.

Still, at least we've got the Daily Telegraph to tell it like it is, standing up to the government censors and refusing to be cajoled into the reporting conspiracy. That was Conrad Black's old paper, wasn't it? He's a good guy.

5bn interest on a trillion. Good rate of return that. Wouldn't get that investing in anything else. Will they distribute that evenly amongst the population, do you know, or just the MPs?
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Old 26.07.2010, 20:30
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Re: Financial Crisis Bank News [was: How Safe is UBS?]

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Hmmm, you could be right. Perhaps there is a media conspiracy run by the US and UK governments to make us all believe it was somehow the banks fault when really it was nothing at all whatsoever to do with them, and in fact was the total ineptitude of said Governments. Not very convincing conspiracy however, seeing as we've had a change of governments.

Still, at least we've got the Daily Telegraph to tell it like it is, standing up to the government censors and refusing to be cajoled into the reporting conspiracy. That was Conrad Black's old paper, wasn't it? He's a good guy.

5bn interest on a trillion. Good rate of return that. Wouldn't get that investing in anything else. Will they distribute that evenly amongst the population, do you know, or just the MPs?
I guess you probably prefer the Guardian then?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...ans-protection

Or maybe the Daily Mail?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/art...bank-debt.html
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  #1740  
Old 27.07.2010, 09:37
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Re: Financial Crisis Bank News [was: How Safe is UBS?]

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5bn interest on a trillion. Good rate of return that. Wouldn't get that investing in anything else. Will they distribute that evenly amongst the population, do you know, or just the MPs?
seriously? did you not read those articles?? where have you got the trillion from? the gov is underwriting debt (for a fee), so unless the bank default its not costing the gov or 'us' anything, in fact they will make 5b+ out of it, that for nothing, the gov have not put any money to one side for this, they haven't given the banks any of it, its just like you guarantying a loan for a friend or family, it doesn't cost you a bean unless they stop paying the loan.

now if you don't understand this very basic and simple practice then this isn't the thread for you.
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