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  #41  
Old 13.01.2007, 15:23
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Re: Swiss Neutrality

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What sort of response is that?
hey, they told me to change my name.

Here were my suggestions:

Max Power
Fava Stugatz
Johnny Walker
Ted Nugent
Ernesto Guevarra
Clint Eastwood
John Holmes

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  #42  
Old 13.01.2007, 15:25
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Re: Swiss Neutrality

On the same page

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1516430.stm

I had to do a little research to find more information on this topic. In the end, these are swiss historians whose work is published, please note the names and look then up, perhaps something is lost in translation here.

peace/jg



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The BBC you quoted article has nothing to do with the war being extended by Switzerland!

Coming from a country (USA) that was some 3500 miles away from the war zone with no chance of ever being bombed, fighting a country whose language and culture you did not understand, it easy for you to be critical of Switzerland's role in WW2. Remember that life was hard for the ordinary people in Switzerland with rationing here during the war. Something the USA did not have.

The German border is some 15 miles from Zurich, there is a shared language of sorts and many cultural similarities. I am not condoning what some Swiss banks and authorities are alleged to have done in WW2, I'm explaining how very different the Swiss situation was to the American one. In fact if Pearl Harbor hadn't been bombed, the US might never have joined in at all...
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  #43  
Old 13.01.2007, 15:33
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Re: Swiss Neutrality

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In all, I'm surprised at the response to the criticisms, but it can be another cultural different, where you do not bite the feeds, where we chomp on it.

peace/jg
I, like others, have been on this forum for a while, and I have routinely seen people, who move to Switzerland and nit-pick on topics like this, without balancing their criticisms with appreciation for the positive aspects of Swiss politics/society. Bite the hands that feeds you by all means, but don't forget to say thank-you for the food it gave you.

I hope on day to have citizenship here, and when I do, I will vote whenever possible.
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  #44  
Old 13.01.2007, 15:41
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Re: Swiss Neutrality

Of course, there are many more positives here in CH then what we're discussing here. The point of this thread was to challenge at least discuss CH neutrality.

I love the clean air, love the people so far, well most of them , some maybe I just like like, no love for you, the food's decent, a million things that i've yet to find. That is why I willfully moved here, to a great place.

I had other choices, Germany, Hong Kong, but Switzerland was the place for me. Especially when I get the chance to get some skiing done.

It's the thread, its a bad subject. I'm not one to keep my mouth shut when the topic's uncomfortable for the host.

So far so good, everyone I met enjoys living here.

Come on,, come on,, no hard feelings, why can't we all just get along
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  #45  
Old 13.01.2007, 16:46
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Re: Swiss Neutrality

Whatever the debate about geographical location or an historical sense of independance (not neutrality!), surely the real point is that the Swiss have proven exceptionally good at storing, protecting and keeping confidential, the worlds richest and most influential peoples' money. This is not a criticism, just fact.

"Currently an estimated one-third of all funds held outside their country of origin (sometimes called "offshore" funds) are kept in Switzerland." Wikipedia

Couple this with a very large but relatively invisible standing army and it should surely become clear that Switzerland's nuetrality is guaranteed both by its own constitution and outsiders self interest.

Whenever the World's many and varied "leaders" find themselves in need of a cash injection; whether for personal engrandisement, or to finance a "bit of business", they can be assured that there is one bank that is always open, and that the very nature of that bank means that others have no interest in destabilising the ability to perform these financial transactions.


I think people should avoid apparent criticism of Switzerland for this situation. It is something that has served both the Swiss and the powerful of all other countries very well, thank you.

And for a good example of this, just look a little bit deeper into the "rich" history of the Bush clan in the USA.
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  #46  
Old 13.01.2007, 16:59
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Re: Swiss Neutrality

Just an aside to the original thread.

Why is it that whenever a person lives in a country other than their country of origin, they are denied the right to free speech and more specifically the right to criticise some aspect of the country in which they reside. Is this only allowed when the criticism expressed is in 'common' agreement with the aboriginal folk?
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  #47  
Old 13.01.2007, 17:32
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Re: Swiss Neutrality

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Just an aside to the original thread.

Why is it that whenever a person lives in a country other than their country of origin, they are denied the right to free speech and more specifically the right to criticise some aspect of the country in which they reside. Is this only allowed when the criticism expressed is in 'common' agreement with the aboriginal folk?
I'm not sure what you mean. Everyone in Switzerland and on this forum is allowed to say whatever they want.

But if what they say is incorrect, unsubstantiated, hearsay or their own unproven opinions, then they will be challenged. What else would you expect? I think that the 'Swiss-bashers' have more than a good crack of the whip here.
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  #48  
Old 13.01.2007, 18:13
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Re: Swiss Neutrality

I apologise for any miss-understanding.

But you may notice, I specifically avoided any mention of nationallity, country of person. I hope this clarifies things for you
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  #49  
Old 13.01.2007, 18:16
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Re: Swiss Neutrality

Didn't mention any specific nationality. Just a general observation. Please feel free to insert any country or peoples, if it helps to clarify
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  #50  
Old 13.01.2007, 18:20
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Re: Swiss Neutrality

P.S.
And specifically, "Swiss-bashers" on this site do seem to feel they are given plenty of ammo.

Personally, I think Switzerland is beautiful. And I know that a large part of this is due to the efforts of the Swiss themselves.
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  #51  
Old 13.01.2007, 18:28
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Re: Swiss Neutrality

Quote:
Just an aside to the original thread.

Why is it that whenever a person lives in a country other than their country of origin, they are denied the right to free speech and more specifically the right to criticise some aspect of the country in which they reside. Is this only allowed when the criticism expressed is in 'common' agreement with the aboriginal folk?
This is a fair point. Any country I have been to have a similar reaction from 'aboriginals', including in the UK. Locals may grumble about the national situation, problems with all sorts of aspects of life but are often willing to defend against the same complaints when coming from a foreigner.

This is no more than pride in their own country, but hardly a curtailment of free speech.

If some one comes to my house and immediately moans about the decor, it wouldn't matter whether I agreed or not, I would be offended. My next reaction would probably be 'well bugger off then!'.

Any place you visit it is probably not a good idea to complain louder than the locals do, even if they started the complaints...

Try coming to Leeds and moaning about Yorkshire and you'll soon see what I mean! You freedom of speech will be curtailled quickly and painfully .
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  #52  
Old 13.01.2007, 18:48
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Re: Swiss Neutrality

By free speech I refer to comments which include sentiments like "if you don't like it, leave your residency visa, etc. at the border when you leave"

This seems to me to be the verbal equivalent of putting ones hands over ones ears!

It seems to be a common repost and I am always unsure when discussion of a point of view, becomes so personal attack which requires such a response.

And Leeds is not the only place. Does this mean that because it is common, it is correct?
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  #53  
Old 13.01.2007, 19:10
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Re: Swiss Neutrality

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By free speech I refer to comments which include sentiments like "if you don't like it, leave your residency visa, etc. at the border when you leave"

This seems to me to be the verbal equivalent of putting ones hands over ones ears!

It seems to be a common repost and I am always unsure when discussion of a point of view, becomes so personal attack which requires such a response.

And Leeds is not the only place. Does this mean that because it is common, it is correct?
4 posts and at last you have said what you talking about. I agree, it is like not listening.

Leeds? I guess that's where Jazz comes from and that's why he used the example - a poor one though, as there is plenty to moan about there...
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  #54  
Old 13.01.2007, 19:23
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Re: Swiss Neutrality

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4 posts and at last you have said what you talking about. I agree, it is like not listening.

Leeds? I guess that's where Jazz comes from and that's why he used the example - a poor one though, as there is plenty to moan about there...
I could have used a worse example, I'm originally from Walthamstow. Mind you, there aren't enough locals left there to offend.

Quote:
And Leeds is not the only place. Does this mean that because it is common, it is correct?
Its not a matter of right or wrong, that wasn't the point of the post. Its reality - the majority of people defend where they are from. Its good that people take a pride in their origins, life could be a lot worse if they didn't...
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  #55  
Old 13.01.2007, 19:23
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Re: Swiss Neutrality

Trying to avoid giving people ammunition, when understanding is the issue.

Similar to the thread "are the Swiss racist", this theme is chock full of unintentional booby traps and attempting to steer clear of them is like being told a joke regarding the Swiss by a Swiss. If I then attempt to repeat the joke, suddenly it's not funny, it's an attack on the integrity of the Swiss.

And please, please, for "Swiss" in this context, feel free to insert any group you like. In this respect as in most others, I am quite open minded.
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  #56  
Old 13.01.2007, 19:26
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Re: Swiss Neutrality

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"if you don't like it, leave your residency visa, etc. at the border when you leave"

This seems to me to be the verbal equivalent of putting ones hands over ones ears!
Perhaps. Because we've heard so many people post "This place is shit" after being in country 10 minutes.
Just look at the threads in the last 7 days that have similar back-and-to posts, accusation, "misunderstandings", mention "free speech", the meaning was to promote "vigorous debate" etc etc.
Yawn, yawn, heard it...
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  #57  
Old 13.01.2007, 19:34
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Re: Swiss Neutrality

Jazz, I come from Hackney.

My point is not whether somebody has the right to react in defence of which ever tribe they identify with. It's about being open minded enough to hear a criticism.

If the view point is justified or a gross insult, surely an honestly made point should be able to be countered with a, dare I say it, more mature response.

I am an Arsenal supporter and I will always defend a persons right to support and declare Spurs to be the best football team in the world, no matter how manifestly wrong they are
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  #58  
Old 13.01.2007, 19:40
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Re: Swiss Neutrality

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Bite the hands that feeds you by all means, but don't forget to say thank-you for the food it gave you.

I hope on day to have citizenship here, and when I do, I will vote whenever possible.
I dont actually think that Switzerland is the "hand that feeds me", rather the contrary I would be so bold as to suggest. I do a job that very few Swiss seem capable of and/or want to do. I pay the same taxes but use a lot less of the services (eg education) that an equivalent Swiss. I think the same goes for most people on this forum.

Now you are quite right, I am a hypocrite and cynical because I am happy to live in a nice country that can afford to have low taxes because it hides in the middle of Europe being neutral all while benefitting from the relative peace and democracy paid for by the rest of the western world. But I figure I do vote in the UK and at some point I will go back to the UK and end up paying a load of inheritance tax there to attone for my sins. A sort of pragmatic/balance sheet approach to morality I guess.

Daniel
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  #59  
Old 13.01.2007, 19:40
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Re: Swiss Neutrality

"If some one comes to my house and immediately moans about the decor, it wouldn't matter whether I agreed or not, I would be offended. My next reaction would probably be 'well bugger off then!'."

True that. I do not feel that I am swiss-bashing, someone posed the question if there is a thing such as Swiss Neutrality, it wasn't until i was told to get out did this thread seemingly go to the dumps.

I like it so far. Who said it's 'shit'.

If I go to your house and see your pipes are leaking and your stealing your neighbors cable TV, I might let you know, because maybe you didn't.

As far as criticism, the CH can learn to take a little. I had to learn after daily barrages from my European counterparts working NYC, Detroit, Chicago, Houston, Los Angeles, where they constantly complained usually with personal attacks on the ignorance of some of my fellow Americans, though some might hve deserved it. The joking style of Europeans, "ah, he's American, still resonates here in CH". Everyone should swallow a little pride and listen to complaints as they might hve an ounce of legitimacy.

The question posed on this thread is about negative topic in CH history, unfortunately you cannot change history regardless of how you want to paint it.

peace/jg
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  #60  
Old 13.01.2007, 19:56
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Re: Swiss Neutrality

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The question posed on this thread is about negative topic in CH history, unfortunately you cannot change history regardless of how you want to paint it.
NJ, in this instance it remains a piece of Swiss foreign policy which is very much alive.

So for example in the first gulf war, which was after all to repel Iraqs invasion of Kuwait, CH forbid military flights to cross CH air space on the grounds of neutrality. So be it, but a cynic (like me) might construe it to be a neat way of staying clear of the militant islamic backlash that was pretty sure to follow.
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