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Old 03.11.2008, 18:21
hoppy
 
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Swiss vote Nov 30: clarifcation on crime limitation thing...

I am in a quandry as how to vote. I am serious about this. I understand most of what is being said and then there is always this to help: http://translate.google.com/translat...NA:en%26sa%3DG

However I need to hear the opinion of others on this forum. My question is if these children are not prosecuted will their crimes be ignored? Also as the children who commited the crimes are in need of psychological evauation, what will be done to meet those needs? Is this vote just going to brush the subject under the carpet.

Last edited by hoppy; 03.11.2008 at 18:22. Reason: Missed an 'e' on vote in title
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  #2  
Old 03.11.2008, 19:02
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Re: Swiss vot Nov 30 not to prosecute children for pornographic offences

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I am in a quandry as how to vote. I am serious about this. I understand most of what is being said and then there is always this to help: http://translate.google.com/translat...NA:en%26sa%3DG

However I need to hear the opinion of others on this forum. My question is if these children are not prosecuted will their crimes be ignored? Also as the children who commited the crimes are in need of psychological evauation, what will be done to meet those needs? Is this vote just going to brush the subject under the carpet.
I seem to be messing this up. When I read the press releases on the link above I see that this is something to do with extending the time available to prosecute crimes by adults against children? The translations are somewhat confusing. I would really appreciate help. I also believe that this is an important issue for parents, who, like me, may vote on something that they do not fully understand.
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Old 03.11.2008, 21:05
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Re: Swiss vot Nov 30 not to prosecute children for pornographic offences

I have not yet received the ballot papers. My impression is that the proponents want to remove the time bar on prosecuting child molesters.
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Old 03.11.2008, 22:21
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Re: Swiss vot Nov 30 not to prosecute children for pornographic offences

We haven't our papers yet either. I'll do my best.
At the moment, there is a time limit (ten years?) after which the criminals can no longer be tried for these crimes. As, all too often, a child only speaks of the incidents and charges are made many years after the events, the perpetrators go free. The new law will extend the time allowed for the things to come to light and the case to be tried in court. I believe there will still be a limit though.
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Old 03.11.2008, 22:41
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Re: Swiss vot Nov 30 not to prosecute children for pornographic offences

The referendum is about prosecuting pornographic offenses against children. The Swiss Government and Swiss Parliament propose a time bar of 15 years after the molested child becomes a major. That is the victim can launch prosecution till the age of 33 years.

Those who launched the initiative want to remove all time bars. Those who oppose say that age 33 is late enough for a victim to complain about molestation as a child some 20 or 25 years previously.
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Old 03.11.2008, 22:43
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Re: Swiss vot Nov 30 not to prosecute children for pornographic offences

The initiative wants that sex crimes on children no longer come under the statute of limitation. Right now the limitation period is 15 years.

The problem with this proposal is that it is very difficult to prove sb's guilt 15 years after the crime. Memories fade, evidence disappears.
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Old 03.11.2008, 23:18
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Re: Swiss vot Nov 30 not to prosecute children for pornographic offences

Now is the time to get my ballot papers!!
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Old 03.11.2008, 23:18
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Re: Swiss vot Nov 30 not to prosecute children for pornographic offences

Perhaps a Mod could change the thread title it's a bit miss-leading.
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  #9  
Old 04.11.2008, 00:46
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Re: Swiss vote Nov 30: clarifcation on crime limitation thing...

Thank you AbFab for changing the title. I did try earlier butcouldn't get it to work. Thank you for all the replies, they are very helpful.

I wonder if this votehas anything to do with the charges of Paedophilia against the church.
I just read an article about the transportation of Jews through France, although they may be able to provide more hard evidence to support thier case in prosecuting the French authorities, I think it fair that paedophilia cases remain open.
I am unsure as to whether this voteincludes the circulation of photographs or videos of children. It think it would be unfair to put a time limit on prosecution if such material was still in circulation.
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Old 04.11.2008, 01:00
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Re: Swiss vote Nov 30: clarifcation on crime limitation thing...

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Thank you AbFab for changing the title. I did try earlier but couldn't get it to work. Thank you for all the replies, they are very helpful.

I wonder if this vote has anything to do with the charges of Paedophilia against the church.
I just read an article about the transportation of Jews through France. Some may say that the holocaust victims may be able to provide more hard evidence to support thier case in prosecuting the French authorities, that the prosecution of paedopholia is largely subjective. In the Holocaust case, the statute of liitations seems to allow them prosecute, despite the time that has passed. I therefore think it fair that paedophilia cases remain open.
I am unsure as to whether this vote includes the circulation of photographs or videos of children. It think it would be unfair to put a time limit on prosecution if such material was still in circulation.
This is a very difficult issue

Last edited by hoppy; 04.11.2008 at 01:00. Reason: Tried to edit.
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  #11  
Old 04.11.2008, 01:19
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Re: Swiss vote Nov 30: clarifcation on crime limitation thing...

here is a good example:http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/news_di...29233000&ty=nd

This priest has just been arrested for alleged offences that go back 40 years! How this law will afffect him and the church?
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Old 04.11.2008, 01:40
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Re: Swiss vote Nov 30: clarifcation on crime limitation thing...

Now that I look a few cases seem to be popping up. Here is another- a Swiss man who seems to have been traveling to India for sex tourism for the last 20 years!
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/sw...-abuse/370979/

Last edited by hoppy; 04.11.2008 at 01:42. Reason: Duplication
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Old 04.11.2008, 09:32
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Re: Swiss vote Nov 30: clarifcation on crime limitation thing...

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Now that I look a few cases seem to be popping up. Here is another- a Swiss man who seems to have been traveling to India for sex tourism for the last 20 years!
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/sw...-abuse/370979/
Everyone agrees that child molesters and pedophiles must be caught and severely punished.

The ballot issue is more sentimental than realistic. Anyone who was molested as a child and has at the age of 33 not yet complained, is unlikely to do so later. Also, as another poster wrote, it is difficult to substantiate such charges after 15 to 25 years. Another hurdle is the international human rights convention, which does not allow unbounded prosecution.
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  #14  
Old 04.11.2008, 14:41
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Re: Swiss vote Nov 30: clarifcation on crime limitation thing...

I think that the stigma of abuse for the victim is being lifted. Many, who had remained silent for years, are coming to the realization that they are free of shame. After that the realization they often get angry and when they get angry they want action. The sad thing is that they often don't get the justice they deserve.

The other aspect is that many of these people may belong to long established networks, prosecutions are the key to opening up these networks.

I do not see a link between homosexuality and paedophilia as the catholic church is trying to suggest. Paedophilia is not form of sexual preference that will be pushed undergroung if it is not allowed to come out into the open. It is a crime which any normal person, gay or straight abhors.
I think that the church's effort to close the books is to avoid the emptying of thier coffers.
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Old 04.11.2008, 15:00
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Re: Swiss vote Nov 30: clarifcation on crime limitation thing...

I posed the question on the Swiss info in the comments section:

http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/news_di...91308000&ty=nd

And these were the comments that followed (see under), Canada has also lifted the statute of limitations, so it seems as this Ssiss inititiative can do the same. Please spread the word to others so that they see how important this vote is, whichever way they choose to vote.


Quote:
SMP TURLISH , United States
Another example of conspirarcy, collusion and cover-up. But how can this be happening in Switzerland?

Any number of officials at the Holy See have gone on record as early the 1990s saying this was an American, as in the United States of America, problem.

The Swiss seem to have some of the same problems those of in the U.S. have. In the State of Delaware, we previously had arbitrary statutes of limitation of two years for both criminal and civil cases of child abuse.

HOWEVER, AS OF JULY 10, 2007 WE HAVE NO STATUTES OF LIMITATION REGARDING THE SEXUAL ABUSE OF CHILDREN, EITHER CRIMINALLY OR CIVILLY AND WE HAVE OPENED A CIVIL LEGISLATIVE WINDOW TO BRING FORWARD PREVIOUSLY TIME BARRED CASES OF CHILD ABUSE.

CHANGE THE LAW AND PROTECT CHILDREN MORE THAN PREDATORS!
henry de , Canada
it is about time to put this paedophilia behind bars where the belong.
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Old 04.11.2008, 15:40
hoppy
 
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Re: Swiss vote Nov 30: clarifcation on crime limitation thing...

I will try to make this my last post in a while so that I don't monopolize the thread I started!

I find this strange:
http://kinderschutz.ch/cms/de/node/367
This is the Swiss society for the protection of children, which I read to be against having an unlimited period, in which to bring about a prosecution. To me their logic is somewhat reversed. They claim that allowing an unlimited time to prosecute, will encourage victims to think that they have forever to report the crime. This means that when and if they do eventually report, their case will be weakened by time. In the meantime, the report suggests that they are much better off with improved psychological services.
The first problem I have with this is that, weakened or not they will not be able to bring the case if it is beyond the statute of limitations, so that is a mute point. Secondly, who pays for the psychological services?- the parents or victim pay as does health insurance. Thirdly this organisation although very respectful, claims to be independent but is largely funded by the government. The government is against changing the statute of limitations. Surely they are against changing this becuase it could be very costly and because much of politics is influenced by the church.

Please do let me know if I have misunderstood the article as I am prone to do on occasion
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Old 10.11.2008, 02:22
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Re: Swiss vote Nov 30: clarifcation on crime limitation thing...

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I think that the stigma of abuse for the victim is being lifted.
"To lift the stigma of abuse" is a weak argument. Legally there is no stigma attached to being a victim and legally the punishment is high.


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I think that the church's effort to close the books is to avoid the emptying of thier coffers.
You significantly overestimate the political power of the church in Switzerland.


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here is a good example:http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/news_di...29233000&ty=nd

This priest has just been arrested for alleged offences that go back 40 years! How this law will afffect him and the church?
The old allegations are irrelevant in court. The article states that the prosecution focuses on crimes that allegedly happened in 2000-2001.

The initiative would not influence this court case because the law isn't changed retroactively.


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I will try to make this my last post in a while so that I don't monopolize the thread I started!

I find this strange:
http://kinderschutz.ch/cms/de/node/367
This is the Swiss society for the protection of children, which I read to be against having an unlimited period, in which to bring about a prosecution. To me their logic is somewhat reversed. They claim that allowing an unlimited time to prosecute, will encourage victims to think that they have forever to report the crime. This means that when and if they do eventually report, their case will be weakened by time. In the meantime, the report suggests that they are much better off with improved psychological services.

The first problem I have with this is that, weakened or not they will not be able to bring the case if it is beyond the statute of limitations, so that is a mute point.

Secondly, who pays for the psychological services?- the parents or victim pay as does health insurance.
There are other arguments about the financial aspect: Who finances the court system if it has to deal with more hopeless cases? Who pays for the psychological support if real victims need it after losing in court?
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Old 10.11.2008, 03:42
hoppy
 
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Re: Swiss vote Nov 30: clarifcation on crime limitation thing...

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"To lift the stigma of abuse" is a weak argument. Legally there is no stigma attached to being a victim and legally the punishment is high.
There still is a stigma, but the lifting of it allows more victims to come forward and take legal action. Legally the punishment is not as high as in other countries.
Quote:
You significantly overestimate the political power of the church in Switzerland.
Then why do the steuramt make such a big fuss about getting your religion right. The church collects a tax through the steuramt, or has that changed? Also politics are often discussed in church, so that has an influence. Cantons may even be divided according to belief, like Innner/ Ausser Rhoden. Where women were amongst the last to get the vote. So in many ways the influence of the church is still present. On the other side having read this http://ni4d.us/do_you_participate

I am still impressed by the Swiss legal system and I got to vote, so I had my say!



Quote:
The old allegations are irrelevant in court. The article states that the prosecution focuses on crimes that allegedly happened in 2000-2001.

The initiative would not influence this court case because the law isn't changed retroactively.
Can't more than one case be brought against the same person if they are guilty of many crimes? Surely a paedophile can be charged for each crime independently, just wait to see if the law changes.

Quote:
There are other arguments about the financial aspect: Who finances the court system if it has to deal with more hopeless cases? Who pays for the psychological support if real victims need it after losing in court?
I would not dare to compare the pain of an abused child with the pain of losing a court case. I think that the statistics on the number of paedophiles going unprosecuted far outweighs the number that are falsely confused. look at these guys that have been doing it for decades and getting away with it!

Often changes of law are expensive- initially as a flood of cases comes to the fore. The cost of victims who go without justice can take a far heavier toll. Many resort to all kinds of actions that eventually cost society.
Her in the US an 8 year old just killed his father and uncle for abuse (not sure yet whether it was sexual or physical), I imagine it will cost the courts and social services to sort that one out.
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Old 10.11.2008, 03:44
hoppy
 
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Re: Swiss vote Nov 30: clarifcation on crime limitation thing...

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I would not dare to compare the pain of an abused child with the pain of losing a court case. I think that the statistics on the number of paedophiles going unprosecuted far outweighs the number that are falsely confused. look at these guys that have been doing it for decades and getting away with it!

Often changes of law are expensive- initially as a flood of cases comes to the fore. The cost of victims who go without justice can take a far heavier toll. Many resort to all kinds of actions that eventually cost society.
Her in the US an 8 year old just killed his father and uncle for abuse (not sure yet whether it was sexual or physical), I imagine it will cost the courts and social services to sort that one out.
OH NO I broke my rule of no more posts on this-sorry! OK I quit.
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Old 01.12.2008, 14:55
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Re: Swiss vote Nov 30: clarifcation on crime limitation thing...

The people voted in favor of the initiative with 52%. I think it's remarkable that two of the three latest successful initiatives are crime-related.

(As a background, the vast majority of initiatives fail. Either because their goals are not popular enough to begin with, or because the parliament creates laws as a compromise that are favored by the public.)

I'll keep track how this constitutional ammendment becomes law...
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