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-   -   Atheist bus campaign in CH (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/43755-atheist-bus-campaign-ch.html)

amogles 19.02.2009 15:36

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Macchiato (Post 400244)
No WAY!!!!

How many died in the Holocaust, in Hitler's other achievements, in Stalin's Siberia, in the Second World War? In Vietnam and Cambodia? How many were killed through the hunger socialist mismanagement caused? Or that which free market capitalist imperialism brought upon us?

How many died in the Crusades, in the Spanish Inquisition, in Mohammed's wars of conquest??

Which is the lesser of two evils?

Macchiato 19.02.2009 15:41

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 400247)
Without God there is no clear definition of what is good and bad. .

This is a typical relig. beilef, everything is black or white hell or heaven, good or bad, superior or inferior, God or devil, blessd or sinful ,...,
Nothing in the middle and no average, which is exactly against daily matters! this is a quite illiterated character to categorize the things in 2 opposite extremes.

Macchiato 19.02.2009 15:44

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 400255)
How many died in the Holocaust, in Hitler's other achievements, in Stalin's Siberia, in the Second World War? In Vietnam and Cambodia? How many were killed through the hunger socialist mismanagement caused? Or that which free market capitalist imperialism brought upon us?

How many died in the Crusades, in the Spanish Inquisition, in Mohammed's wars of conquest??

Which is the lesser of two evils?

Above guys' brutality had nothing to do with atheism man, perhaps they would have been killing double in case they could use relig. more!

Mikers 19.02.2009 15:56

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 400247)
Without God there is no clear definition of what is good and bad. There is no higher authority so everybody can decide for themselves what is good and what is bad and cannot be challenged because everything is a matter of opinion and perspective.

This is patently not true. Without God there is no clear definition of good and bad ? "Good" and "Bad" activities are moral and legal standards adhered to by society defined (normally) within the boundaries of a country. Some (religious) people are free to apply their values above this, so that an activity that they think may be "good" can be performed or "bad" cannot be performed but you cannot say that only God can define what is good or bad. Here is a simple example: I do not believe in any god whatsoever at all. its all rubbish. I will not kill my mother because I know it is a bad thing to do. For me, this act is a crystal clear definition of a bad activity.

amogles 19.02.2009 16:00

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Macchiato (Post 400264)
Above guys' brutality had nothing to do with atheism man, perhaps they would have been killing double in case they could use relig. more!

perhaps is the key word here.

We cannot measure what might have happened. We can only measure what happened.

Mikers 19.02.2009 16:02

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 400255)
How many died in the Holocaust, in Hitler's other achievements, in Stalin's Siberia, in the Second World War? In Vietnam and Cambodia? How many were killed through the hunger socialist mismanagement caused? Or that which free market capitalist imperialism brought upon us?

How many died in the Crusades, in the Spanish Inquisition, in Mohammed's wars of conquest??

Which is the lesser of two evils?

This is not a logically correct comparison. Religious wars are fought in the name of religion. that is their reason for attacking. All other wars cannot be said to be have been fought "because" of atheism, they were just wars. So the number of "other wars that arent because of religion where the people happen to be atheists" yes is many millions, but the actual argument which I thought was "wars that have been fought for the reason of atheism" is pretty low compared to wars fought because of religion.

amogles 19.02.2009 16:03

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Macchiato (Post 400260)
This is a typical relig. beilef, everything is black or white hell or heaven, good or bad, superior or inferior, God or devil, blessd or sinful ,...,
Nothing in the middle and no average, which is exactly against daily matters! this is a quite illiterated character to categorize the things in 2 opposite extremes.

this is atheist nonsense. Of course there are heaps and heaps of examples in Christianity and other religions of commentaries, judgements and laws etc reflecting that there are shades of grey and mitigating circumstances etc.

amogles 19.02.2009 16:08

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeB (Post 400283)
This is not a logically correct comparison. Religious wars are fought in the name of religion. that is their reason for attacking. All other wars cannot be said to be have been fought "because" of atheism, they were just wars. So the number of "other wars that arent because of religion where the people happen to be atheists" yes is many millions, but the actual argument which I thought was "wars that have been fought for the reason of atheism" is pretty low compared to wars fought because of religion.

not all wars that were claimed to have been fought in the name of religion were genuinely fought for that reason. Often they were triggered over conflicts of interest or even for reasons of expansionist or other politics. However, atheists classify them as religious wars because the commanders were (supposeldy) religious men.

what then is different in "atheist wars"?

Furthermore, the various wars that the USSR sponsored were definitely for the expansion of Socialism as a system and hence for the advancement of a system that is based on atheism and seeks to impose atheism on its subjects. Hitler too sought to impose his philosophy on the countries he conquered and established pupper regimes there which were basically clones of his own. I don't see how a war that seeks to spread an atheist philosophy is not an atheist war.

Basically WW2 was about two slightly different sub-variants of atheism butchering one-another off. Three if you count market capitalism.

Guest 19.02.2009 16:10

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
Don't think we are going to arrive at a revelation in the course of this discussion, but I do find that the atheist's arrogant, sneering dismissal of people they offend / upset speaks volumes about them. By contrast, why should an atheist give a monkey's if someone tells them they're going to a hell they don't believe in.

Dostojevskij wrote: "without God, everything is permitted", which became a mantra for the communists in N. Vietnam and Cambodia. I know that I would not want to live in a world where everything is permitted.

Logging out...

Jim

Mikers 19.02.2009 16:16

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 400291)
not all wars that were claimed to have been fought in the name of religion were genuinely fought for that reason. Often they were triggered over conflicts of interest or even for reasons of expansionist or other politics. However, atheists classify them as religious wars because the commanders were (supposeldy) religious men.

what then is different in "atheist wars"?

Furthermore, the various wars that the USSR sponsored were definitely for the expansion of Socialism as a system and hence for the advancement of a system that is based on atheism and seeks to impose atheism on its subjects. Hitler too sought to impose his philosophy on the countries he conquered and established pupper regimes there which were basically clones of his own. I don't see how a war that seeks to spread an atheist philosophy is not an atheist war.

Basically WW2 was about two slightly different sub-variants of atheism butchering one-another off. Three if you count market capitalism.

ok the first bit makes any comparisons very difficult because your saying that some wars which were religious might not have been its just atheists putting over their accusations whereas your atheist will say the wars were religous its just religious people covering their tracks so the arguments go on forever.

I wouldnt see hitlers march across europe as an atheist war. when he wrote his objectives down he wanted to take over europe to be in control of everyone and build his super race. It might have involved no religion but that was not his wars principle purpose. it was a "murder war" not an "atheist war" he didnt go and invade poland to rub out catholicism. he did it to get poland as a country. among many items after this including his own education system, political system and the like there would have no doubt been religous constraints but you would be pushing it to the extreme to say it was a "war of atheism".

Perhaps we arent going to agree on the terms of the initial argument I think amogles!

amogles 19.02.2009 16:17

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeB (Post 400277)
Here is a simple example: I do not believe in any god whatsoever at all. its all rubbish. I will not kill my mother because I know it is a bad thing to do. For me, this act is a crystal clear definition of a bad activity.

And suppose another comes and says that for him it is crystal clear that it is okay for him to kill his mother? That is your opinion against his. Who is right? Who is wrong? Who has the right to make a law and impose his arbitrary opinion on the rest of society? In democracy it is the majority that gets to decide, and a majority can be mistaken. But if the majority votes a low into existence, and you consider that law unjust, can you still be right? Or must you accept majority rule and accept that your feeling of injustice is just your opinion that counts for nothing in the bigger picture. If the majority were to say that it is okay for you to kill your mother, or even demand you kill your mother, on what basis could you refuse if justice itself is the result of arbitrary lawmaking.

No. In saying you think it is wrong to kill your mother, you are saying there is a voice within you telling you so. You can call it conscince or natural morality or what you like. But those names are just to disguise the fact that you are talking about the God whose existence you reject.

amogles 19.02.2009 16:25

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeB (Post 400302)
ok the first bit makes any comparisons very difficult because your saying that some wars which were religious might not have been its just atheists putting over their accusations whereas your atheist will say the wars were religous its just religious people covering their tracks so the arguments go on forever.

No, the distinction is totally clear.

If atheists can define as a religious war any war in which the commanders were religious types, surely it is fair to define as atheist war any war in which the commanders were atheist types?

So you can divide wars into two distinct categories. And so you can compare on fair terms (making allowances maybe for technology) the total damage caused and people killed etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeB (Post 400302)
I wouldnt see hitlers march across europe as an atheist war. when he wrote his objectives down he wanted to take over europe to be in control of everyone and build his super race.

Exactly, and that is a society in which God has no place. maybe it was not his first and foremost goal to root out religion but it definitely was a goal. He even had a type of replacement religion in which he replaced the concept of God by the concept of his master race. Serving this race would have been akin to serving god. In other words, an atheist religion.

Mikers 19.02.2009 16:26

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 400303)

No. In saying you think it is wrong to kill your mother, you are saying there is a voice within you telling you so. You can call it conscince or natural morality or what you like. But those names are just to disguise the fact that you are talking about the God whose existence you reject.

I thought I was going to have a decent debate here but you've just moved from an intelligent debater into a religous nut im afraid.

I DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD.

there is no rejection, no inner fear. I believe in science. my father was a scientist, my mother and my grandparents. my brother is a scientist and so am I. I am quite happy with my life and quite happy with what is right and wrong. i dont need some made up story someone wrote called the bible to enlighten me, sorry.

I am sure you will tell me im just passing off my fear of belief.

Russkov 19.02.2009 16:29

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 400247)
Without God there is no clear definition of what is good and bad. There is no higher authority so everybody can decide for themselves what is good and what is bad and cannot be challenged because everything is a matter of opinion and perspective.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law ?
Quote:

Of course atheists do claim there is an absolute good and an absolute bad but in doing so they are only referring to the judgement of an absolute God (who they otherwise reject). They call this God by various strange names such as a natural law or a natural morality to disguise the fact that it is a God.
Absolutely not. Human morality has changed and evolved over thousands of years. We are social creatures and over generations we have learned that certain social rules and behaviours are more beneficial and more harmonious to our existence than others. This is taught to us by our parents and institutionalized into government and adapted into religion.
Quote:

But they fail to explain how this natural law came to be if it is not a God or was not created by a God.
I just did.
Quote:

As soon as they do go all the way and reject this natural law as being a replacement God, they are accepting there is no absolute good or bad but only a personal perspective.
Personal perspective. You mean like the 10 Commandments, which I'd remind you mostly aren't laws if you look at them today. The only ones left that are laws are don't steal and don't kill. Now, I admit to having a sometimes overactive imagination, but I can juuuust imagine how human beings were able to come to the conclusion of not liking those things done to them, and decided to reciprocate in order to have social harmony.
Quote:

No. In saying you think it is wrong to kill your mother, you are saying there is a voice within you telling you so. You can call it conscince or natural morality or what you like. But those names are just to disguise the fact that you are talking about the God whose existence you reject.
That's so presumptous and condescending I don't even know where to begin. Maybe I should listen to the voice in my head.

InShan 19.02.2009 16:34

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 400303)
In saying you think it is wrong to kill your mother, you are saying there is a voice within you telling you so. You can call it conscince or natural morality or what you like. But those names are just to disguise the fact that you are talking about the God whose existence you reject.

I'm not going to go out and kill anyone this evening or any evening. If it matters- I'm not an atheist, God simply doesn't matter enough for me to get all that worked up over the concept.

If I do not kill people it is because:
a) I've been brought up not to do it. Socialization and upbringing has taught me that this is wrong. I'm aware my actions don't exist in a vaccuum- that my actions either are utterly unimportant in the scheme of things, contribute to public good, or cause public harm. Killing someone is public harm, IMO.
b) There are heavy penalties against it which act as a deterrent for me. I would rather NOT spend my life rotting in a prison.

I don't think you need to have a faith in an external God figure to get to this point. If you have that faith- good for you. But you don't need it, is all.

Canadian_dude 19.02.2009 16:39

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 400238)
If you look at 20th Century history you'll find that atheist regimes have a good deal more suffering and murder to account for than religious ones. In fact they probably killed more people than the Church and other traditional religions combined in the previous 19 Centuries.

They didn't kill people to uphold an atheist creed... they just happened to be atheist AND something else. Stalin/Mao were communists, Hitler was a Nazi and a good catholic AND he was the one that started the WW2. WW1 was started for GOD, king and country by non-atheist countries.

Atheism is just an ABSENSE of a certain ideology. One can be a capitalist atheist or a communist atheist.

Guest 19.02.2009 16:53

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
See what these dickheads with their silly bus have created?

Where was the tension between atheists and religious types in Switzerland before this sodding bus arrived?

Missionaries are a right pain in the arse, whichever idiotic ideology they spout...

Russkov 19.02.2009 16:58

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
I dunno, I get the feeling that certain cities refusing to run this campaign created more controversy and heated debate than just letting it run ever would have. For me the main controversy is the fact that there had to be one.

Mikers 19.02.2009 16:59

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
Quote:

See what these dickheads with their silly bus have created?

Where was the tension between atheists and religious types in Switzerland before this sodding bus arrived?

Missionaries are a right pain in the arse, whichever idiotic ideology they spout...
I wonder if the Pro God bus can travel to different planes of existence.

amogles 19.02.2009 17:23

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadian_dude (Post 400348)
They didn't kill people to uphold an atheist creed... they just happened to be atheist AND something else

...something else that just happened to be incompatible with any religion.

or are you trying to say their atheism was an accident?


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