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-   -   Atheist bus campaign in CH (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/43755-atheist-bus-campaign-ch.html)

drsmithy 10.03.2009 17:05

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phos (Post 415261)
Some of these posts are just so nasty, ugly and beyond decency. I'd classify a lot of them as hate speech. It's one thing to disagree, but its quite another to attack another's family or culture.

How would anyone like it if some other says, "The reason for your fuming ugliness is because your father was an alcoholic crook who screwed sheep, your mother is an ignorant whore, and your father was really the milkman."?

I mean, quite hurtful stuff, don't you think?

Remember the golden rule, if you even know what it is.

Isn't this the proof? The fruit of believers or unbelievers are in there words and character.

Gather round, folks, bring your friends as well. This is probably the best example of Hypocrisy you'll see for years.

Guest 10.03.2009 17:07

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Russkov (Post 415294)
To be fair, a lot of these laws are very reactionary and misguided, especially the latter you mentioned, which is an absolute travesty in a "free" society.


So says 1 man.

So what happened to mutally consented ethics and morality? Isn't that idea an atheist creed, or only DB's concept?

spacelab 10.03.2009 17:07

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Castro (Post 415283)
Its already been deemed that in a civil society we should all try and get along with one another, even if that means curtailing certain freedoms of speech. We have clear laws on libel, defamation, incitement to religious/racial hatred, stirring up social unrest etc.. there is even a law which makes denial of the holocaust an imprisonable offence. Therefore its pretty naive to imagine that your freedom of speech is a universal, absolute right.

that's a good point. its difficult to decide what qualifies as libel/defamation. in the case of the cartoons, they were just not very offensive. when i first saw them, after all the nonsense that ensued, i remember thinking 'is that all?'. the reaction, on the other hand, was reprehensible and grotesque. since you bring up holocaust deniers, i don't think they should be imprisoned, although they believe what they do against overwhelming evidence to the contrary (kind of like creationists). its a thoughtcrime in the orwellian sense. the way to get rid of holocaust deniers is through free exchange of ideas - not by trying to censor or control what people think.

drsmithy 10.03.2009 17:07

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 415263)
No, it would be more collectively like trying to blame all modes of transportation if somebody got run over while playing chicken with juggernauts on the motorway,

I can't decide if this is a Wikipedia reference-linkStrawman or a Wikipedia reference-linkNon sequitur. Should I do up a poll ?

Guest 10.03.2009 17:08

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeB (Post 415296)
You insulted me somewhat by implying diseases are the fault of the person that has them or their ancestors (though it was a few thousand pages back so I have considered it just one of those debating things now).

I'm sorry. I didn't mean any personal offense by that. I believe I was asked for my opinion on why diseases exist.

Anyone else get insulted? Where and how?

amogles 10.03.2009 17:13

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Castro (Post 415283)
Its already been deemed that in a civil society we should all try and get along with one another, even if that means curtailing certain freedoms of speech. We have clear laws on libel, defamation, incitement to religious/racial hatred, stirring up social unrest etc.. there is even a law which makes denial of the holocaust an imprisonable offence. Therefore its pretty naive to imagine that your freedom of speech is a universal, absolute right.

I actually disagree with that.

If somebody draws an innocent cartoon of an islamic suicide bomber arriving in heaven, and St Peter tells him, stop, we've run out of virgins, and then thousands of people rampage on the streets and even kill people, it is the protestors who are over-reacting. Not the original cartoon that has crossed any lines.

Similarly, I disagree with bans on Holocuast Denial. Most of the guys who practice that particular hobby disqualify themselves before they even start a serious debate. Letting them speak would be more damaging to their case than any ban can hope to be. Such bans only give them a veil of credibility and support their claims that the government has something to hide.

Sometimes accepting moderate insults is a necessary part of political debate. If people are too thin skinned to see it that way, why should we give up our freedoms for their sake.

spacelab 10.03.2009 17:14

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phos (Post 415306)
I'm sorry. I didn't mean any personal offense by that. I believe I was asked for my opinion on why diseases exist.

Anyone else get insulted? Where and how?

why care about insulting people who have no principles?

Castro 10.03.2009 17:14

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by spacelab (Post 415304)
that's a good point. its difficult to decide what qualifies as libel/defamation. in the case of the cartoons, they were just not very offensive. when i first saw them, after all the nonsense that ensued, i remember thinking 'is that all?'. the reaction, on the other hand, was reprehensible and grotesque

If we were in a crowded diner and some lout got up and insulted your good lady wife, you would obviously feel the insult to a greater extent than me. If you then got up and lamped the guy, I might abhor the violence but at the same time I would completely understand. Its called human empathy.

Russkov 10.03.2009 17:15

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phos (Post 415303)
So says 1 man.

So what happened to mutally consented ethics and morality? Isn't that idea an atheist creed, or only DB's concept?

Never did I suggest that I saw things that black and white. Just because I acknowledge that ethics and morality are ever-evolving through people's perception of them, doesn't mean that everyone, including me, agrees with how they currently are. Which is what, wait for it, causes them to change and evolve.

See: Jim Crow laws in the States in the 60s, and Proposition 8 passing California. Bigotry shared by many or reactionary ideas legislated (in this case, sending Holocaust deniers to jail just for writing an unpopular opinion, however stupid it may be) aren't necessarily right.

Guest 10.03.2009 17:16

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by spacelab (Post 415314)
why care about insulting people who have no principles?


Are you kidding? I love people with no principles. Their the best people to party with.

spacelab 10.03.2009 17:17

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phos (Post 415319)
Are you kidding? I love people with no principles. Their the best people to party with.

albeit the least trustworthy

Guest 10.03.2009 17:19

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Russkov (Post 415318)
Never did I suggest that I saw things that black and white. Just because I acknowledge that ethics and morality are ever-evolving through people's perception of them, doesn't mean that everyone, including me, agrees with how they currently are. Which is what, wait for it, causes them to change and evolve.

See: Jim Crow laws in the States in the 60s, and Proposition 8 passing California. Bigotry shared by many or reactionary ideas legislated (in this case, sending Holocaust deniers to jail just for writing an unpopular opinion, however stupid it may be) aren't necessarily right.

So you don't necessarily agree with DB that moral and ethics are mutually agreed upon. So then, please tell me about this concept of what you deem right and wrong. What is it based on?

Guest 10.03.2009 17:20

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by spacelab (Post 415320)
albeit the least trustworthy

Trust is knowing what to expect from a person. If you don't know what a person is about, what do you trust?

Mikers 10.03.2009 17:24

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by spacelab (Post 415314)
why care about insulting people who have no principles?

Hang on a minute, why is that called for ? I have plenty of principles thank you very much.

amogles 10.03.2009 17:31

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 415312)
Similarly, I disagree with bans on Holocuast Denial. Most of the guys who practice that particular hobby disqualify themselves before they even start a serious debate. Letting them speak would be more damaging to their case than any ban can hope to be. Such bans only give them a veil of credibility and support their claims that the government has something to hide.

Having said that, I wouldn't want Holocaust Denial to be taught in schools as an alternative explanation to "normal" history. This isn't really an equal comparison to creationism, but I don't like that being taught either.

Russkov 10.03.2009 17:37

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phos (Post 415321)
So you don't necessarily agree with DB that moral and ethics are mutually agreed upon. So then, please tell me about this concept of what you deem right and wrong. What is it based on?

A strawman, and one that I think we should put to the test.

I'd advise you to ask DB what he meant by "mutual", because you seem to be suggesting it's something like 100% or near-ananimity, and I highly doubt that's what he meant.

Guest 10.03.2009 18:03

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
By the way, I think I understand all the lashing out at religion. Religion brings a heavy condemnation on the heads of people. So the common reaction is "WTF? Who needs that? F them!".

For a rational discussion, you need to keep in mind not to throw the baby out of the bathwater. You need to differentiate between God, religion, religious organizations, religious moralists, and innocent people who are simply living within their cultures, and yourselves. These are all distinct entities. Mixing them up will cause the discussion to go around in circles. So stop chewing on your fellow man.

Now as for the condemnation. First of all, it is true. But the larger truth is, we ALL are. That includes ALL people religious or not. The problem is religions set a standard that no mere mortal can honestly meet. A proof of that is we are ALL going to die. Now stop worrying, and enjoy your life.

spacelab 10.03.2009 18:04

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeB (Post 415325)
Hang on a minute, why is that called for ? I have plenty of principles thank you very much.

i was not referring to you; i was referring to phos previous comments about atheists.

Guest 10.03.2009 18:06

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Russkov (Post 415339)
A strawman, and one that I think we should put to the test.

Not a strawman at all. I'd actually like to give you a voice. I'd really like to know where you get your concept of right and wrong. And if you want, explain what atheism's concept of right and wrong is.

<boxing gloves off> <---see?

spacelab 10.03.2009 18:06

Re: Atheist bus campaign in CH
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phos (Post 415356)
So stop chewing on your fellow man.

.

i can't help noticing how the rules don't apply to you.


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