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Old 27.02.2007, 20:59
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Re: Are the swiss racist?


The policy with all the Swiss police that I met was action first, assessment later. This was a stupid stunt, but it's just a warning-of what can happen, listen out for the Swiss police comment at the end.

Last edited by mark; 01.03.2007 at 15:11. Reason: making the link into a nice plugin to make it easier to watch
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Old 27.02.2007, 21:14
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

Quote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwEhR...related&search=

The policy with all the Swiss police that I met was action first, assessment later. This was a stupid stunt, but it's just a warning-of what can happen, listen out for the Swiss police comment at the end.
Verena - WOW - I kind of had a feeling I knew what was going to happen as I watched that. I know this has nothing to do with racism per se and is therefore offtopic for this thread, but it is an excellent example of video being used to illustrate a point. It said at the end that 3 years later the police were charged, but I'd be willing to bet they walk away with nothing more than a slap on the wrist and won't even lose their jobs.

Thanks for sharing - I think it's going to give me nightmares.

EDIT - Update - I did some googling and found that the police officers were acquitted in 2006. I wasn't surprised at all.
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Old 27.02.2007, 21:52
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

I hope that the video doesn’t offend anyone. The posts on this thread tend to be hotly debated. I’m sure that no-one on this site would pull a stupid stunt like this, but they may get into racist confrontations where the police are called. I would hate for anyone to think that the Swiss police, belonging to a neutral country are more likely to assess situations; before acting out their instincts. I have learned never to argue with Swiss police even when you are right and completely innocent of any crime. Just hire a lawyer.
On the right hand side of the video page it says that the officers were acquitted. I didn’t read up on the court stuff to see if that is true. I have met one very nice Swiss high ranking detective-so I couldn’t call the whole force racist.
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Old 27.02.2007, 22:08
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

Ref the video:

IMO that was a really dumb stunt and asking for trouble. The protesters were lucky a motorist didn't cut the rope, never mind the police - I would have been sorely tempted had I been there - and lucky no one was injured or cars damaged in the totally unnecessary pile-up the protesters caused on the autobahn...
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Old 27.02.2007, 22:55
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

Amazing video - such stupidity on both sides...

Both police and demo participants should be sent to jail.

I think it does show that the police are more tolerant towards white people - if the people blocking the bridge were non europeans, the batons would be busier.
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Old 27.02.2007, 22:58
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

Quote:
Ref the video:

IMO that was a really dumb stunt and asking for trouble. The protesters were lucky a motorist didn't cut the rope, never mind the police - I would have been sorely tempted had I been there - and lucky no one was injured or cars damaged in the totally unnecessary pile-up the protesters caused on the autobahn...
The people pulling this stunt were idiots. If you watch this video carefully, you can easily interpret from the initial language what is going on. The US, Britain and the capitalist pigs are annexing Iraq? Really?!? When was that announced?
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Old 27.02.2007, 23:02
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

It was announced by indymedia a long time ago - it's all part of global conspiracy, dontcha know ?
Iraq was annexed to enable Wal-Mart to move into the oil business. or something like that
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Old 27.02.2007, 23:03
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

Quote:
The people pulling this stunt were idiots. If you watch this video carefully, you can easily interpret from the initial language what is going on. The US, Britain and the capitalist pigs are annexing Iraq? Really?!? When was that announced?
Absolutely, the protesters should have been charged. And they were, and they were found guilty by the court. But the police were not. As for Iraq

Just wanted to add something from my previous post. I have two friends that work for the Zurich police. One is definitely not a racist and we've had discussions where he's told me that he is disappointed with the number of his colleagues who are racist and proud of it. Just wanted to add that in case anyone thought I was condemning all police here of being racist or unprofessional - that was not my intention.
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Old 27.02.2007, 23:27
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

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\As for Iraq
Probably breaking the rules, as this is not related -- but I was against the war, protested before in New York, Boston and Washington, DC and tried to organize my college campus against it. I'd actually call myself center-right -- so not a leftist view.
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Old 28.02.2007, 00:56
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

Quote:
Ref the video:

IMO that was a really dumb stunt and asking for trouble. The protesters were lucky a motorist didn't cut the rope, never mind the police - I would have been sorely tempted had I been there - and lucky no one was injured or cars damaged in the totally unnecessary pile-up the protesters caused on the autobahn...
The people pulling the stunt were indeed complete f**kwits and clearly they didn't do their research about the Swiss police before they tried it.

However, that said, the action of the cop who cut the rope is clearly gross misconduct (or else reveals totally inadequate training). If the whole incident was quietly forgotten about, as seems to be the case, then that's a disgrace.


By the way, from the tone of your post and of recent ones here - have you considered joining the SVP?
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Old 28.02.2007, 01:24
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

Damn, I lost my reply by browser malfunction...oh well, here goes again..

The protesters engineered a situation that equates to russian roulette.They hold, IMHO, the greatest responsibility for what occurred. They "ambushed" the coppers.

The police: Military police, poorly trained, poorly prepared, and lacking in support or intelligence. The "tunnel vision" associated with high-stress situations meant that communication and chain-of-command broke down.

The cutting of the rope was negligent, but was probably an act of "good faith". By that I mean, the cop wanted to open up the road, not expecting that the protesters had seriously placed their colleagues in danger. No doubt he is punishing himself over this as much as anybody.

Justice: All involved are entitled to fair process. Bear in mind, that the burden of proof in criminal matters is normally quite high. A slight mitigating element is enough for an aquittal, and the police defence no doubt exploited this. A judicial system is only as good as the community it presides over.

The website: The fact that the protesters fail to acknowledge their own culpability negates their credibility. As well:

Quote:
We don’t believe in your rule of law, and we don’t believe in your system of justice.
We won’t act out our roles in your play and make repression all too easy for you.
We won’t make it so easy for you to sweep this under the carpet...
This is not helping their cause. Even if I did believe in their cause, I wouldn't give them any money...sure it would just get "smoked" instead of spent on legal fees.

Having said that, I believe the coppers were trying to do their jobs, but they just arsed it up big time. Unfortunately, mistakes in such situations tend to snowball...that's just how it is. Unfortunately, it is difficult for those who have never walked the thin blue line to know how it really is. Don't get me wrong, the police got off too easy...
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Last edited by evilshell; 28.02.2007 at 06:02.
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Old 28.02.2007, 01:25
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

Quote:
The people pulling the stunt were indeed complete f**kwits and clearly they didn't do their research about the Swiss police before they tried it.

However, that said, the action of the cop who cut the rope is clearly gross misconduct (or else reveals totally inadequate training). If the whole incident was quietly forgotten about, as seems to be the case, then that's a disgrace.


By the way, from the tone of your post and of recent ones here - have you considered joining the SVP?
I'd actually consider the tone of Ab Fab's latest posts to be respectable. And, by the way, I've only been here since August! Then again, I'd vote FDP. In my opinion, the police should have pulled / dragged these people in immediately -- it was idiotic and in my opinion almost criminal to let them hang there (maybe it is Swiss to ignore it?!?). Where was the central communication, especially if this was an important transportation route during an international conference, as the individuals on the wacko leftist video portray it.

Remember: It was apparently not the Swiss who were negligent, but the leftist capitalist machine. The leftists were just ensuring that these individuals would try to preserve the resistance against the Bretton Woods establishment!!! (Ugh )
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Old 28.02.2007, 01:34
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

I may be making a mistake , but wasn't the guy who cut the rope the same guy that was there from the beginning, tore up the notice warning that 2 people were hanging and went and looked over the side at them?
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Old 28.02.2007, 01:43
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

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I'd actually consider the tone of Ab Fab's latest posts to be respectable. And, by the way, I've only been here since August! Then again, I'd vote FDP. In my opinion, the police should have pulled / dragged these people in immediately -- it was idiotic and in my opinion almost criminal to let them hang there (maybe it is Swiss to ignore it?!?). Where was the central communication, especially if this was an important transportation route during an international conference, as the individuals on the wacko leftist video portray it.

Remember: It was apparently not the Swiss who were negligent, but the leftist capitalist machine. The leftists were just ensuring that these individuals would try to preserve the resistance against the Bretton Woods establishment!!! (Ugh )
Is Bretton Woods getting to you? If you are an experienced climber then you make sure that you have secure anchor posts, these guys knew the risk, but never beleived the police would cut. the anchor post certainly aren't secure. I wouldn't drag these people, it could go wrong. Who cares if the traffic snarls up, it happens every summer in CH, to try to persuade drivers to take the train. The delegates can be helicoptered out. The swiss military love showing off thier toys. I know some Swiss military that would have enjoyed it. James Bond Swiss style
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Old 28.02.2007, 01:45
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

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I may be making a mistake , but wasn't the guy who cut the rope the same guy that was there from the beginning, tore up the notice warning that 2 people were hanging and went and looked over the side at them?
I might be mistaken, but have I not messaged you politely and repeatedly about your propensity to cite websites and sourses that are known to be beyond the typical spectrum of acceptable sources? I think that you have a problem in terms of your interpretation of reality.
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Old 28.02.2007, 03:15
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

The police came across as ARROGANT! The protesters need a life on the other hand. Hanging off a rope? Martin will know better next time...what an idiot! Plus there should have been 3-5 protesters on both sides of the bridge holding the rope for any such eventuality. The rope should also have been secured near the railings.
I would say it was 50% fault of the police and 50% of the protesters. Full credit to the protesters for their stupid stunt!

Last edited by jamaicanRUM; 28.02.2007 at 06:59.
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Old 28.02.2007, 04:01
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

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I might be mistaken, but have I not messaged you politely and repeatedly about your propensity to cite websites and sourses that are known to be beyond the typical spectrum of acceptable sources? I think that you have a problem in terms of your interpretation of reality.
Acceptable to whom? Are you now my personal moderator- that's okay I don't mind. I may have an unusual take on life, probably due to having lived in so many different countries and mixing with so many different people. Any interpretation of reality I have, when I am being serious, is here for others to judge. Seymour Hirsch and Noam Chomsky aren't the crackpots that others may have led you to believe. I'm pretty sure that you beleive in freetrade, freepress. The problem is that it is usually a myth. Freetrade compatibale to Bretton Woods? look it up on Wikipedia- the dominance of US.
Racism is like any other ism, like when you keep on knocking on doors to be accepted but can't get in. I've got through most doors and sometimes don't like what I see, so I try to open doors to share with others what I have seen. Some of my experiences or sources are unusual. If my sources are unnaceptable let others decide, isn't that what the site is for? Sometimes it pays to go off the beaten track, although not in monetary terms. Maybe not the kind of stuff you can use for your Uni essays. The beauty of a site like this is when it can educate without being heirarchical. I like to learn through horizontal rather than vertical literacies. I like to balance what I have experienced with the vertical heirarchical education I have recieved through Western educational establishments. I knew that the post would be controversial, as long as it promotes good discussion then it's worth it.

Not all great minds think alike, thank goodness for multiculturalism- lets get this thread back to multiculturalism/racism!
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Old 28.02.2007, 07:21
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

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<snip>
By the way, from the tone of your post and of recent ones here - have you considered joining the SVP?
Join the SP? I don't qualify: I'm not over-weight, don't have a mustache and don't wear a toupé - and anyway, they're a bunch of whimps...
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Old 28.02.2007, 10:46
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Re: Are the swiss racist?

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Acceptable to whom? Are you now my personal moderator- that's okay I don't mind. I may have an unusual take on life, probably due to having lived in so many different countries and mixing with so many different people. Any interpretation of reality I have, when I am being serious, is here for others to judge. Seymour Hirsch and Noam Chomsky aren't the crackpots that others may have led you to believe. I'm pretty sure that you beleive in freetrade, freepress. The problem is that it is usually a myth. Freetrade compatibale to Bretton Woods? look it up on Wikipedia- the dominance of US.
Racism is like any other ism, like when you keep on knocking on doors to be accepted but can't get in. I've got through most doors and sometimes don't like what I see, so I try to open doors to share with others what I have seen. Some of my experiences or sources are unusual. If my sources are unnaceptable let others decide, isn't that what the site is for? Sometimes it pays to go off the beaten track, although not in monetary terms. Maybe not the kind of stuff you can use for your Uni essays. The beauty of a site like this is when it can educate without being heirarchical. I like to learn through horizontal rather than vertical literacies. I like to balance what I have experienced with the vertical heirarchical education I have recieved through Western educational establishments. I knew that the post would be controversial, as long as it promotes good discussion then it's worth it.

Not all great minds think alike, thank goodness for multiculturalism- lets get this thread back to multiculturalism/racism!
There is a very big difference between Seymour Hirsch and Noam Chomsky -- Chomsky is a loonie. I liked to read him -- before I had actually read into the events he always loves to cite in connection with one another. If you've actually done that reading on your own, you'll realize that he creates false linkages and just blabs about as many events as possible to sound intelligent. A lot of the time he doesn't even correctly present his evidence. I had to put one of his newer books down -- I couldn't finish reading it because it was full of so much false crap. He is not very credible.

What I meant by credible "sources" goes back to the fact that you like to cite Indymedia and other such websites, as if they are more "in the know" of international events than professional journalists at newspapers such as The Indepenedent, Guardian or New York Times (notice that I am choosing papers that alledgely have left-of-center leanings). Those articles are often written by people who are extremely biased and have no real grasp of reality, because the Bretton Woods capitalists are destroying our planet through their globalization and enriching themselves at the price of the poor people in some Latin American country (depends upon the day). What has globalization done to hundreds of millions in China?!? Not important, I guess. Time to go back to the Arundhati Roy book/essay!

Really -- these people are not published somewhere professional for a reason. For goodness sake, if they were at least somewhat credible they'd be published in the New Left Review ( http://www.newleftreview.org ) with that esoteric crap.
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Old 28.02.2007, 13:15
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Re: Aubonne Bridge Protesters and Police

I had a friend who was in charge of PR for a very large global company and we often discussed "PR" issues. In her younger days she was an activist for various causes but told me that she became frustrated with these groups because they were totally unable to convey their message effectively, effectively isolating themselves from the very people they were trying to reach. She had tried many times to explain this idea, but was generally ignored by people who just "didn't seem to get it". I think it's sad because sometimes some of these people have a point (many people who laughed at the protests about Iraq have a different opinion today than they did at the beginning), but they discredit themselves to the point where some people can actually imagine that they see justification in cutting such a rope.

Death is death and injury is injury. A reporter doesn't deserve to get shot in the head twice by a policeman no matter what he's done (unless he is very clearly threatening someone else's life).

Anyway, I agree with Litespeed's comments - combination of pressure, tunnel vision and an apparent complete lack of training. So to try and bring something constructive to this debate here's my take on how the situation might have been handled.

1. Assess the scene (that means not talking on the mobile phone the whole time). Scene assessment might take a minute or so to figure out what they were dealing with.
2. Communicate with the protesters, ask them what they want, or what they are threatening to do. Perhaps another minute required for this. Protesters may shout or not be very useful at this point, but they would have at least explained that there were people hanging from ropes.
3. Communicate this information back to your central command, request advice and/or backup.
4. Wait until police arrive in sufficent numbers and then start arresting/removing protestors.
5. Pull up the ropes on either side of the bridge. Four police officers on each side should be able to pull up the ropes and remove the person on the end of it quite easily. Could be attempted before step 4 if protesters didn't attack the police doing it.
6. Now that the threat has been removed cut the rope and clear the area
7. Only allow traffic to flow once the situation is clear and no more people remain on the road.

It aint rocket science. Of course it could be argued that the police were under pressure, so how could I expect them to keep a clear head. They are supposed to be trained for such situations. What would happen if there were a more complex situation?

Litespeed - I understand what you said about the burden of proof, but you can clearly see the cop involved on video - he arrives, sees exactly what is going on, then returns later to cut the line, knowing full well what will happen. That's called wilful negligence, and to my mind could be called attempted murder. He was caught red-handed. Because he had perfect knowledge of what he was doing it could not be called an act of "good faith".

I think Verena's comment about traffic snarls is true - we have to endure road works and huge queues every single summer - now all of a sudden a traffic jam has to be cleared with so much speed that all concepts of scene assessment and safety are thrown to the wind - even down to cars being allowed to pass on a road full of people walking around...
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