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  #61  
Old 25.09.2009, 12:08
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Re: Self Defense in Switzerland

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Nil, if something like this occupies your mind, go sign up for a self defense course for girls. I tell you it'll make all the difference in the world to know that you either can defend yourself or that you at least tried to defend yourself. It is as Uncle Max says, in the head, even if he meant perhaps something else, but it does a lot of good to your mindset believe me.
I got my blue belt in Aikido already and did also plenty of self-defense classes to refresh my memories.

I just gave this as an exemple about assaults. It's not all the time about money and objects people can be after....

Anyway in a case of a rape, you shouldn't look scared because this is what make the guy thrilled about.

The thing is wherever you have some kind of ''rules'' of action from those perverts, you always have an exception. And if you hit that exception and can't self defense in the way you can and should and end up murdering him, always in a self defense matter, where stand the law?

You should just punch him... You didn't have to kill him.. Right, but it might happened in the action where you try to hit him with the rock, to hit the side of his head and kill him right away. So where the law will stand?
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  #62  
Old 25.09.2009, 12:10
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Re: Self Defense in Switzerland

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... in California?
... in the UK?
... in Switzerland?
The general meaning of Assault is an act that can be perceived as an attempt to inflict harm on another. <--Those are my words. There must be a more technical definition out there on the Internet.
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  #63  
Old 25.09.2009, 12:11
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Re: Self Defense in Switzerland

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Why would anyone worry about the legal ramifications of self-defense?

An assailant is not likely to press charges against you, let alone, involve the police. They probably have some sort of record with the police already.
This is a worst case scenario and didn't even happen in Switzerland, but it does show that self-defense needs to be reasonable and you should definitely report anything that happens to the police. A friend in America told me of a case in Ohio, a guy was charged with fellonious assault and had to serve 8 years because he won a fight with two guys that were ready to beat him up outside of a bar. He knocked both of them out and stumbled home, under the impression that they were the ones who instigated the fight and he was blameless. They went to the hospital with bruises and reported him. He could have gotten away with a fighting misdemeanor, but was charged with fellonious assault basically because he won the fight so decisively and they filed a report and he didn't.

He had no priors and had a good reputation, so his lawyer told him to plead guilty and throw himself at the mercy of the court. But the judge threw the book at him and gave him 8 years. Plus, the guys sued him and got most of his money. Crazy.

This isn't likely to happen in Switzerland, yes, but one shouldn't get the impression that just because he's on the receiving end of an agression that everything is permitted. I've had some martial arts training, and my instructors always told me that the most effective technique we learn to use with an agressor in the street is the running during the warm-up.
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Old 25.09.2009, 12:17
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Re: Self Defense in Switzerland

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This is a worst case scenario and didn't even happen in Switzerland, but it does show that self-defense needs to be reasonable and you should definitely report anything that happens to the police. A friend in America told me of a case in Ohio, a guy was charged with fellonious assault and had to serve 8 years because he won a fight with two guys that were ready to beat him up outside of a bar. He knocked both of them out and stumbled home, under the impression that they were the ones who instigated the fight and he was blameless. They went to the hospital with bruises and reported him. He could have gotten away with a fighting misdemeanor, but was charged with fellonious assault basically because he won the fight so decisively and they filed a report and he didn't.

He had no priors and had a good reputation, so his lawyer told him to plead guilty and throw himself at the mercy of the court. But the judge threw the book at him and gave him 8 years. Plus, the guys sued him and got most of his money. Crazy.

This isn't likely to happen in Switzerland, yes, but one shouldn't get the impression that just because he's on the receiving end of an agression that everything is permitted. I've had some martial arts training, and my instructors always told me that the most effective technique we learn to use with an agressor in the street is the running during the warm-up.

There are clearly miscarriages of the law. Such miscarriages can occur regardless of your choice of actions. This can, and has happened in Switzerland as well. I know a guy who has locked up for a time, but he wasnt even at the scene. It was all based on the testimony of a couple of people. His innocence was later proven. The city had to give him lots of money for the mistake.
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  #65  
Old 25.09.2009, 12:36
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Re: Self Defense in Switzerland

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The general meaning of Assault is an act that can be perceived as an attempt to inflict harm on another. <--Those are my words. There must be a more technical definition out there on the Internet.
Good, maybe you can print that off and bring it with you to court.

My point is, the boundaries of what is considered "assault" or "credible threat" or "reasonable force" or "excusable excitement" vary from country to country and even from courtroom to courtroom.

The OP wants to know what the situation is in Switzerland (in Ticino particularly.) Holding forth on what I think constitutes an assault - or what my home country says constitutes one - as if this were universally valid, is pointless and potentially misleading.
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  #66  
Old 25.09.2009, 12:43
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Re: Self Defense in Switzerland

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Good, maybe you can print that off and bring it with you to court.

My point is, the boundaries of what is considered "assault" or "credible threat" or "reasonable force" or "excusable excitement" vary from country to country and even from courtroom to courtroom.

The OP wants to know what the situation is in Switzerland (in Ticino particularly.) Holding forth on what I think constitutes an assault - or what my home country says constitutes one - as if this were universally valid, is pointless and potentially misleading.
Swiss law on self-defence... http://books.google.ch/books?id=Y6P0...age&q=&f=false

Seems reasonable to me... you have the right to defend yourself against any unlawful attack, providing the response is proportional to the threat.
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  #67  
Old 25.09.2009, 12:51
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Re: Self Defense in Switzerland

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Swiss law on self-defence... http://books.google.ch/books?id=Y6P0...age&q=&f=false

Seems reasonable to me... you have the right to defend yourself against any unlawful attack, providing the response is proportional to the threat.
Reading this, it seems a good idea to get yourself drunk pretty quickly after whacking someone, as this comes under 'reduced responsibility / insanity' and is a mitigating factor. All grist to the mill
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  #68  
Old 25.09.2009, 12:53
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Re: Self Defense in Switzerland

I believe there are International Law standards on the issue of Self-Defense. It falls under exclusion from criminal responsibility.

According to the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court:

"The conduct which is alleged to constitute a crime within the jurisdiction of the Court has been caused by duress resulting from a threat of imminent death or of continuing or imminent serious bodily harm against that person or another person, and the person acts necessarily and reasonably to avoid this threat, provided that the person does not intend to cause a greater harm than the one sought to be avoided. Such a threat may either be:
(i) Made by other persons; or
(ii) Constituted by other circumstances beyond that person's control."


http://untreaty.un.org/cod/icc/STATUTE/99_corr/3.htm
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  #69  
Old 25.09.2009, 12:57
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Re: Self Defense in Switzerland

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According to the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court:
But the ICC doesn't have jurisdiction, does it, unless Swiss courts are unable/unwilling?
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Old 25.09.2009, 13:08
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Re: Self Defense in Switzerland

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But the ICC doesn't have jurisdiction, does it, unless Swiss courts are unable/unwilling?
The ICC is really about crimes against humanity on a large scale.

But merely as a legal standard, there is normally some parity. The only real differences between them is the interrpretation of the word "reasonable". These are decided by courts on a case by case basis.
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  #71  
Old 25.09.2009, 13:09
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Re: Self Defense in Switzerland

Sounds pretty similar to "proportional" as stated under Swiss law to me.
I think most countries are pretty much on the same page as to what constitutes "self defence" - I blame all those "creative" and frivilous litigation sharks in the US messing with our minds.
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Old 25.09.2009, 23:23
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Re: Self Defense in Switzerland

I would have to agree with the points many of you have expressed already in this thread.

If you have a clear pathway to run, obviously you go for it. Also, along the theme of using your brain, a huge part of self defense has to be your awareness of where you are and who is around you. Very obvious and it may all seem like common sense, but I have witnessed many people who drop their guard and are not as awake as they could be. For instance, PLEASE don't walk around with your head down at night whilst trying to send a text message. When you enter places at night, always be at least casually scanning around for escape routes as well as keeping your eye on people and not making any assumptions.

All that being said, if you are not in a position to escape, or simply have any doubts you can run, I believe your goal should be to close the distance and incapacitate the potential assailant as fast as possible using any means necessary. If you decide you are going to have to take an action, it can't be half way. It has to be an effective action. (And that also means a preemptive attack if in your mind, the attack is imminent. If you wait for the attacker to move first, it will probably be too late by the time you respond) Therefore, if the assailant ends up injured, or even maimed as a result, oh well. You did not seek out trouble with your assailant. Once you have the attacker or attackers badly stunned or incapacitated, then get the hell out of there.

As far as the legal ramifications of defending yourself, I think you have to be concerned with priorities. You won't have to worry about a legal battle if you get bottled or beaten to death.

Finally the fight or flight/stress shock phenomenon is probably the biggest factor here. If you do take a self defense course, make sure it is one that roughs you up a bit so you are at least used to the sensations of being violently manhandled. If you don't train realistically, then you can't magically expect results. Even people who DO train realistically can still freeze up in a real life situation.

Hopefully nobody on here ever has to experience such an encounter.
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  #73  
Old 26.09.2009, 09:50
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Re: Self Defense in Switzerland

... I've won several fights by 300m in my time ... also (as a high school student, king-hit from behind by a cement renderer) I won a fight by turning and just looking at him sarcastically. He was a bit stunned that I didn't either fall over or turn around swinging.

Can't recall full details atm, but heard about a case in rural Australia where a farmer broke a burglar's jaw and collar-bone, and got off with self-defence because he "showed restraint" - he broke the bones with the butt of a loaded shotgun, rather than just shooting the guy when he refused to drop his knife and leave. I like the concept of 'restraint' here ... at least the burglar was still alive to complain.
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Old 26.09.2009, 09:58
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Re: Self Defense in Switzerland

Jedi Mind Trick:
One of the biggest deterrent to an attack is to let an assailant know that they will no be getting away with it. This is where a camera comes in handy. If there is a security cam nearby, calmly telling the assailant they were caught on the camera may impose enough lucidity in the mind of the assailant to cause them to back off.
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Old 26.09.2009, 11:07
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Re: Self Defense in Switzerland

I´ve been living in Switzerland almost all my life and except for my notorious schoolyard battles i´ve never seen the need for defense myself. But if everthing else fails i recommend this against a Swiss gangs of muggers




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Old 30.09.2009, 07:07
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Re: Self Defense in Switzerland

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I´ve been living in Switzerland almost all my life and except for my notorious schoolyard battles i´ve never seen the need for defense myself. But if everthing else fails i recommend this against a Swiss gangs of muggers




Looks like an over-sized flare gun ... which I suppose is a valid form of calling for help, just send up a flare!
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Old 17.07.2012, 12:13
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Knife carrying in Switzerland and the stabbing

So the guy who killed one guy and injured his brother seems to have gone on the run.

Some reports have said that the brothers were trying to beat up the knifeman and the stabbing was self-defence.

As far as I am aware, it is legal to carry certain kinds of knives in Switzerland. Perhaps in this case, without the knife it would have been a story about a guy beaten to death?

What do you think about carrying a knife for self-defence?
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Old 17.07.2012, 12:21
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Re: Knife carrying in Switzerland and the stabbing

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What do you think about carrying a knife for self-defence?
its ferkin stupid and you are just going to get hurt or stabbed by your own knife.
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Old 17.07.2012, 12:21
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Re: Knife carrying in Switzerland and the stabbing

It doesn't have to be a knife, though. I often wonder about the point of laws to stop people carrying "knives" but maybe it's just a higher message to discourage people from stabbing each other.

In my handbag I carry a whole load of stuff that could seriously injure others (metal nail file and other nail "tools", a pen with a pointy end, a bottle of perfume that would sting like mad if sprayed in the face, etc). Hell, the bag itself would probably concuss someone if I swung it right.

I've never been in the position where I would need to consider self-defence so I honestly can't say if I'd use anything or just blindly kick the potential attacker in the stones and run like the wind.
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Old 17.07.2012, 12:26
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Re: Knife carrying in Switzerland and the stabbing

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So the guy who killed one guy and injured his brother seems to have gone on the run.

Some reports have said that the brothers were trying to beat up the knifeman and the stabbing was self-defence.

As far as I am aware, it is legal to carry certain kinds of knives in Switzerland. Perhaps in this case, without the knife it would have been a story about a guy beaten to death?

What do you think about carrying a knife for self-defence?
I think carrying any sort of weapon is just asking for trouble. The best defence is _always_ to avoid conflict, rather than prepare for it.
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