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Old 30.04.2007, 08:27
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Washington Post story about gun control in Switzerland

I've seen this topic discussed in other threads, so I thought it would be worth posting this link to a WP story that ran Sunday about the debate over gun control laws in Switzerland. (The story is also in today's Wall Street Journal's European edition):

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...042900133.html
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Old 30.04.2007, 08:53
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Re: Washington Post story about gun control in Switzerland

Now I´m scared...
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Old 30.04.2007, 08:55
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Re: Washington Post story about gun control in Switzerland

The Swiss and guns is probably the one thing I will never really understand.

The nearest shop to where I live was a gun shop. I used to take British visitors for a stroll there to see the weapons openly on sale. This is all in the past now as the store owner blew himself and his shop up a couple of years ago while putting together some home-made ammunition...
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Old 30.04.2007, 09:19
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Re: Washington Post story about gun control in Switzerland

Interesting article. If you don't have time to read the whole thing, then the most interesting stats were:

"The Geneva-based Small Arms Survey estimates that the country has 46 guns per 100 people, which puts it behind only the United States, with 90 guns per 100 people; Yemen, with 61; and Finland, with 56 -- and just ahead of Iraq with 39."

You might say that 46 guns per 100 people in Switzerland is OK, because the Swiss are smarter than those dumb Americans and don't use them except for military purposes, however:

"According to a 25-nation survey by the International Action Network on Small Arms, a British-based organization against gun violence, Switzerland's total number of gun deaths, including accidents, in 2005 was 6.2 per 100,000 citizens, which was second only to the U.S. rate of 9.42 per 100,000. Switzerland's rate of gun deaths was more than double that of 18 of the countries surveyed, including neighbors Germany and Italy."

It sounds like the main difference between US and Swiss gun problems is that the American attitude towards guns is broadcast worldwide via TV, and film. Since the Swiss are far better at making cheese and chocolate than TV and film, then even the Swiss themselves do not perceive guns as causing much of a problem here.
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Old 30.04.2007, 11:13
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Re: Washington Post story about gun control in Switzerland

Mmmmm, that's why a poll last sunday found out that two thirds of the Swiss want to get rid of the gun provided by the army to those who did national service.

Bare also in mind that a good proportion of those firearms in circulation are indeed issued to those who did national service. I had a hand-gun when I lived in Geneva, not because I bought it but because it was my duty to have one...
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Old 30.04.2007, 11:30
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Re: Washington Post story about gun control in Switzerland

Well there appears to be a few contradictions amongst the contributors. The Swiss police say that in 2005 there were 204 homicides that included 48 gun related, but according to a 25-nation survey by the International Action Network on Small Arms, a British-based organization against gun violence, Switzerland's total number of gun deaths, including accidents, in 2005 was 6.2 per 100,000.

By my reckoning based on the quoted population of 7.5 million that makes 465* gun deaths alone in 2005 never mind all the other homicides/deaths caused by knifes, driving, fights, disputes, balconies, fire etc. So someone somewhere is way of the mark, 48 according to the Swiss and 465 according to International Action Network on Small Arms.

*(7.5 million /100,000 x 6,2)
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Old 30.04.2007, 11:34
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Re: Washington Post story about gun control in Switzerland

Maybe the latter might have a slight incline to highlight how bad guns are and therefore come up with numbers that included an awful lot of stuff whilst you hope the various cantonal police forces simply provide figures, without massaging them...
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Old 30.04.2007, 11:38
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Re: Washington Post story about gun control in Switzerland

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Well there appears to be a few contradictions amongst the contributors. The Swiss police say that in 2005 there were 204 homicides that included 48 gun related, but according to a 25-nation survey by the International Action Network on Small Arms, a British-based organization against gun violence, Switzerland's total number of gun deaths, including accidents, in 2005 was 6.2 per 100,000.

By my reckoning based on the quoted population of 7.5 million that makes 465* gun deaths alone in 2005 never mind all the other homicides/deaths caused by knifes, driving, fights, disputes, balconies, fire etc. So someone somewhere is way of the mark, 48 according to the Swiss and 465 according to International Action Network on Small Arms.

*(7.5 million /100,000 x 6,2)
Here are a few more:

"But gun-control proponents here contend that guns kept at home are used increasingly in suicides; according to government figures, there were 271 suicides by firearm in Switzerland in 2004 out of a total of 1,283."
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Old 30.04.2007, 11:39
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Re: Washington Post story about gun control in Switzerland

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Well there appears to be a few contradictions amongst the contributors. The Swiss police say that in 2005 there were 204 homicides that included 48 gun related, but according to a 25-nation survey by the International Action Network on Small Arms, a British-based organization against gun violence, Switzerland's total number of gun deaths, including accidents, in 2005 was 6.2 per 100,000.

By my reckoning based on the quoted population of 7.5 million that makes 465* gun deaths alone in 2005 never mind all the other homicides/deaths caused by knifes, driving, fights, disputes, balconies, fire etc. So someone somewhere is way of the mark, 48 according to the Swiss and 465 according to International Action Network on Small Arms.

*(7.5 million /100,000 x 6,2)
"204 homicides that included 48 gun related" vs "total number of gun deaths, including accidents, in 2005 was 6.2 per 100,000 = 465"

A large number (probably the majority) of gun deaths are those where the owner fires the gun at their own head, and those wouldn't be included in the first total.

Last edited by Yokine; 30.04.2007 at 11:58.
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Old 30.04.2007, 11:45
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Re: Washington Post story about gun control in Switzerland

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A large number (probably the majority) of gun deaths are those where the owner fires the gun at their own head, and those wouldn't be included in the first total.
I don't know, I would imagine that any sucicide by gun would get into most gun related stats
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Old 30.04.2007, 11:57
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Re: Washington Post story about gun control in Switzerland

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I don't know, I would imagine that any sucicide by gun would get into most gun related stats
A suicide is not a homicide by definition, so I would assume that "homicide" totals would not include the suicides.
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Old 30.04.2007, 11:58
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Re: Washington Post story about gun control in Switzerland

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Mmmmm, that's why a poll last sunday found out that two thirds of the Swiss want to get rid of the gun provided by the army to those who did national service.

Bare also in mind that a good proportion of those firearms in circulation are indeed issued to those who did national service. I had a hand-gun when I lived in Geneva, not because I bought it but because it was my duty to have one...

Yes, but you don't actually have to keep it at home, you can deposit in the caserne, and collect it, when you need it.
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Old 01.05.2007, 18:17
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Re: Washington Post story about gun control in Switzerland

Interesting topic. Question is whether gun ownership is good or bad for a community.

I suppose this depends on ones view point. My view is that if you look at world history, you will note that the greatest risks to a community come from ones own government or from a foreign government. Where the population is self-empowered, independent and self-sufficient as they are in Switzerland, this becomes unlikely. The Germans in WWII trampled over the whole of Europe, but avoided Switzerland as they knew that the Swiss were armed and would defend themselves - in every house, in every village.

Seems to me that the figures by this "British-based organization against gun violence" seem to be another case where suitable massaged statistics are used to make a point - in this case against gun ownership.

I reckon that if the Swiss Police say that 48 gun related homicides in 2005 is accurate (same number as the much larger UK with strict gun controls).

Also, if guns weren't readily available this does not mean that those 48 would have lived, as there are countless items other then guns that can be used to kill such as knives, axes, base ball bats, screw drivers, hammers, stones.....

I see that the levels of suicides in Switzerland are high, which I can understand as the place is dead from a social point of view - you either get drunk or kill yourself!

Oh, well - no such thing as heaven on earth is there?
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Old 01.05.2007, 21:28
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Re: Washington Post story about gun control in Switzerland

Oh dear James, you did not find an audience for your wilder theories then?
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Old 02.05.2007, 09:53
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Re: Washington Post story about gun control in Switzerland

Which 'wilder theories' would they be, now exotic?

Seems to me that your logic is that anything that is not in total agreement with what vested interests and authorities would like you to believe becomes a wild theory!

Right, father ted.


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Oh dear James, you did not find an audience for your wilder theories then?
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Old 02.05.2007, 14:29
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Re: Washington Post story about gun control in Switzerland

And obviously, only someone as clever as you and a few initiated fellows can see the Truth...

I mean come on, I like a good conspiracy theory and I happen to think a few of them are quite convincing (like the JFK stuff) but your barmy stories about 9/11 and global warming are not worth the pixel they are written with.
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Old 02.05.2007, 14:44
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Re: Washington Post story about gun control in Switzerland

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The Germans in WWII trampled over the whole of Europe, but avoided Switzerland as they knew that the Swiss were armed and would defend themselves - in every house, in every village.

James, in brief :

Eugen Bircher, a Swiss colonel at the time, probably made a correct assessment of the situation when saying that the Germans would have been able to advance towards the Swiss capital Berne with a single tank regiment easily.
This assessment was shared (but not declared publicly) by a broad majority of leading Swiss Army officers. As a consequence Switzerland's commander in chief General Henri Guisan developped his famous "Reduit Concept" in summer 1940, according to which the Swiss Army would have retreated into the alps relatively soon if attacked, but would have kept up resistance based on some sort of guerilla tactics from there.

Switzerland's alpine railways were of central importance for transports between Germany and Italy . In case of an attack on Switzerland, the Swiss Army would have destroyed important bridges and tunnels, and would have paralyzed the connection for years. The Swiss compromise offer to Germany and Italy was, that Switzerland would allow transports between Germany and Italy in sealed box cars without checking the contents - in exchange for the supply of vital raw materials and goods.

"Of all the neutrals Switzerland has the greatest right to distinction. She has been the sole international force linking the hideously-sundered nations and ourselves. What does it matter whether she has been able to give us the commercial advantages we desire or has given too many to the Germans, to keep herself alive? She has been a democratic State, standing for freedom in self defence among her mountains, and in thought, in spite of race, largely on our side." - Winston Churchill 1944.

"The Swiss work six days a week for Hitler's Germany, and on the seventh pray for a British victory." .... Swiss wartime joke ....

So basically, the threat of invasion never existed, Switzerland was necessary to both sides as a meeting place & place of arbitration & "smoky" deals.

all found in 10 minutes of searching the InterWeb ....
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Old 02.05.2007, 14:54
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Re: Washington Post story about gun control in Switzerland

About guns in Switzerland, I know a few things for sure (for now...who knows anything for sure).

1) It was a bit daunting on my first visit here to meet my wifes' parents when I went to the cellar (bomb shelter) to fetch a bottle of wine and saw 3 assault rifles with ammunition just kinda sitting there. Then my (now) father-in-law saw fit to show me his pistols. A little out of the ordinary to be sure for a poor impressionable Canadian lad...even one who was living in Vegas at the time.

Then...FOR Swiss gun control (at least amongst those related to my fiancee).

2) I now have a daughter who is almost 2, but at some point she will run into suitors who are as I was in my teens.

If we still live here....AGAINST Swiss gun control (with respect to my personal arsenal of teenage boy terror).

3) If we have any boy children, the idea of them doing compulsory military service (if it still exists when the time comes) does not sit well with my pallate. Thinking of ensuring they have Canadian passports so that they can be shot at and shoot at people if they choose, but not if the state chooses.

For the boy kids...FOR Swiss gun control.

4) I haven't heard anywhere near the amount of stories as I did in the US or even in Canada about gun crime. It does not seem to be in the culture. My cop in-laws don't wear vests most of the time and don't seem to be worried about getting shot on the job or through vengeance (their home phone numbers and addresses in the phone book...no chance of that with a North American policeman). Sure there is a high suicide rate here, but that can as easily be argued as the malaise resultant to affluence than as the guns. I think if someone is comitted to killing themselves (which most suicidal people are), any way will do. The Japanese like the train. Homicide, same thing. There is an argument to be made for access to the mode of killing in both instances...but we can't have tighter rat poison control (can we?). This does not strike me as a 'gun culture' (having lived in one...two if you count the Texas of Canada, Alberta).

So, with those thoughts...NEUTRAL on Swiss gun control.

Be nice to know what others think.
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Old 19.05.2007, 22:23
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Re: Washington Post story about gun control in Switzerland

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About guns in Switzerland, I know a few things for sure (for now...who knows anything for sure).

1) It was a bit daunting on my first visit here to meet my wifes' parents when I went to the cellar (bomb shelter) to fetch a bottle of wine and saw 3 assault rifles with ammunition just kinda sitting there. Then my (now) father-in-law saw fit to show me his pistols. A little out of the ordinary to be sure for a poor impressionable Canadian lad...even one who was living in Vegas at the time.

Then...FOR Swiss gun control (at least amongst those related to my fiancee).

2) I now have a daughter who is almost 2, but at some point she will run into suitors who are as I was in my teens.

If we still live here....AGAINST Swiss gun control (with respect to my personal arsenal of teenage boy terror).

3) If we have any boy children, the idea of them doing compulsory military service (if it still exists when the time comes) does not sit well with my pallate. Thinking of ensuring they have Canadian passports so that they can be shot at and shoot at people if they choose, but not if the state chooses.

For the boy kids...FOR Swiss gun control.

4) I haven't heard anywhere near the amount of stories as I did in the US or even in Canada about gun crime. It does not seem to be in the culture. My cop in-laws don't wear vests most of the time and don't seem to be worried about getting shot on the job or through vengeance (their home phone numbers and addresses in the phone book...no chance of that with a North American policeman). Sure there is a high suicide rate here, but that can as easily be argued as the malaise resultant to affluence than as the guns. I think if someone is comitted to killing themselves (which most suicidal people are), any way will do. The Japanese like the train. Homicide, same thing. There is an argument to be made for access to the mode of killing in both instances...but we can't have tighter rat poison control (can we?). This does not strike me as a 'gun culture' (having lived in one...two if you count the Texas of Canada, Alberta).

So, with those thoughts...NEUTRAL on Swiss gun control.

Be nice to know what others think.
Hello.
I think it all depends on the cultural level of the country at the end.
Although for what i heard of many swiss men who sent others to shoot for themselves 'cos they were drunk or just lazy at the obligatory practises anybody may think that there's no need to sustain the actual system, i think there is.
I think that the problme is not having or not having the guns at home. It's wether you can control yourself or not to use them in the right moment, wether you can keepm yourself under control or behave as a child.
USA citizens were never able to do that.
Yes, we had some disgusting killings here and there using the mandatory military weapons, and others as well.
But i have seen people carrying their official assault rifle, and i have never seen anyone showingt it off or using it's posession as a way to gain something. One thing is having the responsability and maturity necessaries to control a determined amount of power, and other is just giving power to children who think killing somebody is playing "Counter Strike".
I know personally people who have been carrying arms and were involved in highly stressful situations, even provoked and physically pushed, but who have never even made a movement towards the arms they were carrying.
Yes, there was this guy last year who killed his wife with his reglamentary weapon, as there were many of them through Swiss History, but those guyes would have done it with another thing, if they wouldn't have had the weapons they used. In fact, if you think about it, nobody needs a gun to kill somebody at home. A chair, a bottle, a knife the options are infinite. In the end, it is not having or not having the ways. It is about having or not having the will and maturity necessary to know when and where it is correct and when and where it is not. It is also about having the necessary courage to support an agression that could not end in physical damage nor life threat without needing to "show" off you are the "big macho" of the block getting a Glock out os it's place and shooting the guy. Keep also in mind that the so US concept of a "looser" does not exist in Switzerland.You don't see men fighting just to prove they can kick each other asses here. It's not about being able to do something, but about being able to restrain your hand when it is not needed to do it. In that, swiss mentality is very oriental, you are not going to actually be more "tough and macho" just because you kick somebody's ass. And if you need to do so to feel better, it's because you are insecure and childish, and therefore you are not capable of having any arm whatsoever, because you might loose the control and screw it.
I read on a magazine here a note that was very funny:
"We have in each house an assault rifle. That teaches our men responsability, you give them the power and they know they have to control themselves. If you would do the same with the french men, they would do a revolution each year. If you would do the same with the iraqui people, thy would exterminate themselves fully"
You won't see in Switzerland a drunk man getting his assault rifle out of the house to celebrate his footbal team won, or using it in gangs. They are there in the houses, with one and only one specific purpose, and they won't be used for something else.
You won't see any person in Switzerland getting his assault rifle out to fight the Police, as happens in USA.
So now we come to the end of the circle: the respect for the established authorities, laws and regulations. How can this be achieved? By applying the laws from the TOP to the BOTTOM. During years, and with some disgusting exceptions, swiss people knew the parking ticket would appear the same upon a cheap Fiat than upon a collectible Excalibur. Even lately, some men were accused of terrorist activities. They were trialed and taken in front of the maximum juridic instance, the TF, Federal Tribunal. They were all aquitted because no proofs were found of their supposed guilt.
In USA, they would still be in Guantanamo, at best. So when you can't trust your own authorities and you have a very low self control level and a culture of the "Far West" movies, disasters are bound to happen.
But while you have the opposite, as it's the case here, you will just have the usual percentage of people who did not deserve the trust in first place.
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Old 19.05.2007, 23:31
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Re: Washington Post story about gun control in Switzerland

The problem is that those committing suicide (which is a high rate in Switzerland) often, way too often, take out their families with them. The WP article said I think 8 cases last year. This is why the women's groups are "up in arms" (sorry) about it all. To kill a couple of kids and your wife, then yourself, with a knife, takes quite a lot of time and energy. But easy access to a gun can mean you can rid yourself of all your problems very quickly. And they do. The murder-suicide rate in Switzerland is very high - I read elsewhere (can't remember where) that it is one of the highest in the world.

So while it feels "safe" here, and the crime rate amongst people who don't know each other is quite low, the fact is, that for some people, usually women, it is not that safe.

Lisa
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