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Old 12.11.2009, 18:29
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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I think she's really quite unbearable but in the case of Polanski she was right.
She is quite popular among the people really, not least due to her EdithPiaf looks, which appeal to the older generation !






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  #202  
Old 12.11.2009, 20:55
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

Weird scene:
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  #203  
Old 12.11.2009, 21:32
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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Humm... And how would the discussion be if Islamic countries would ban all women (also western women) not wearing burqas?

if ???????

surely you know that women cannot enter Iran without wearing the manteau and headscarf. or Saudi. or Kuwait ...
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Old 12.11.2009, 21:56
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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Finally! I left America cos. I could not stand to eat another Mc Donalds Burger.

you do know about Burger King, don't ya ?
  #205  
Old 13.11.2009, 00:46
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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Weird scene:
Weird ? Maybe, but daily in most Muslim countries
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Old 13.11.2009, 00:53
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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if ???????

surely you know that women cannot enter Iran without wearing the manteau and headscarf. or Saudi. or Kuwait ...

what about realities ?? I suggest you consult the offers of travel agents. Saudi Arabia is NOT on offer, neither is Kuwait, and Iran only on "specialized" tours. Women from Western Europe CAN enter Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and the deeply conservative Khaleeji countries without any of those things.

take it the other way round. A rather conservative Prime Minister of one of the states of Malaysia is to ban veils/burqas/tshadors for security reasons. The man otherwise apparently is a horrible fundamentalist, but he argues that all that veiling business has nothing to do with Islam really.

And so back to the point at question. I personally support a ban on veils/burqas/tshadors because women are condemned to wear them by their fathers/husbands/brothers and all talk about "we just want to show are faith" is rubbish.
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Old 13.11.2009, 09:11
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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we have a peaceful religion, let us live in peace

we muslims today are fighting against terrorism and we are the bigger victim of terrorism today, stop relating terrorist to any religion becausee they dont have any religion cast or tribe they are just terrorists.
These days Saudi and Iran are indirectly figthing in Yemen. One side supports Shia and one side Sunni militants. Isn't this a intra-religious clash?


And snipers of Fort hood and the one executed this week in US?
And daily bombs in Pakistan,...

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Old 13.11.2009, 10:29
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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And so back to the point at question. I personally support a ban on veils/burqas/tshadors because women are condemned to wear them by their fathers/husbands/brothers and all talk about "we just want to show are faith" is rubbish.
Sorry, But THIS is rubbish!

Yes SOME women are not free to decide, but I know plenty of girls who wears it because them WANT to. My mother in law wears a veil, my sisters in law don't. One of my cousin in law wears it and not her sisters.

You can not ban something because some are forced to wear it and the majority are not.

Yes it's true, some countries force women to wear them. But we are not there, we are here. We have the chance to be in a free country and it should stay like this.

In Turkey for exemple, the gouvernment did ban any kind of cover for the employees in gouvernmental institution like public schools, universities, hospitals, etc... But in the street, you are free to wear what suit to you.

At the moment we begin to ban something who doesn't affect each others, it's losing some freedom.
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Old 13.11.2009, 11:11
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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Yes SOME women are not free to decide, but I know plenty of girls who wears it because them WANT to. My mother in law wears a veil, my sisters in law don't. One of my cousin in law wears it and not her sisters.
The reason is being brainwashed in childhood, that you will go to hell if you don't wear it, in addition to social uncomfort or even being obliged.
If they wear it here, their kid will probably also do it in future,...
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Old 13.11.2009, 11:14
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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The reason is being brainwashed in childhood, that you will go to hell if you don't wear it, in addition to social uncomfort or even being obliged.
Ok how come one of the cousin is ''brainwashed'' and the others are not? Please explain this to me!
  #211  
Old 13.11.2009, 11:18
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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Ok how come one of the cousin is ''brainwashed'' and the others are not? Please explain this to me!
Different Shampoo used!
  #212  
Old 13.11.2009, 11:21
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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Ok how come one of the cousin is ''brainwashed'' and the others are not? Please explain this to me!
isnt western world brainwashed by media
  #213  
Old 13.11.2009, 11:28
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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isnt western world brainwashed by media
In west they don't threaten the kid about going to hell.
  #214  
Old 13.11.2009, 11:35
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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In west they don't threaten the kid about going to hell.
but they do anti arab anti muslim campaigns, i wonder how much they have invested to advertise anti minaret campaign, they could haved used the money for nobel cause aswell

suppressing 1.57 billion people is not easy without these brainwashing campaigns
  #215  
Old 13.11.2009, 11:43
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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Ofcourse, you are right, Alcohol has been there long before religions maybe. But I said "devised modern way" meaning what you said above. Sorry didnt clarify it.
And what has describing distillation has to do with religion? People in a particular area gained knowledge and described it. They would have done it anyway, with any other religion. Scientific knowledge is advanced by inquisitive nature of humans and need. Not religion.

Saying that religion has anything to do with it is pure rubbish.
  #216  
Old 13.11.2009, 11:48
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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but they do anti arab anti muslim campaigns,
Because a large number of muslims have ideas which belong to middle ages.

Barbaric culture is not needed here. Muslims can implement those idea in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Afganistan, refuse driving/school/going out alone to women but not here.
  #217  
Old 13.11.2009, 13:11
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

Allow me to present a slightly different angle on this debate, a bit tongue in cheek really and maybe not totally objective as a comparison, but let's look at some white westerners who wear clothes that cover them from head to ankles, leaving only hands and feet free plus small holes for the eyes (so conceptually not too different to the burka).

Yes, I'm talking about the Ku Klux Klan.

There is no doubt that the Klu Kulx Klan was (and is) an organisation that promotes hate and violence and that its goals are hence opposed to those of freedom and democracy. The same can maybe said of extremist Islam but not of Islam as a whole.

Would it be okay to ban the wearing of Ku Klux Klan clothing? Or is such clothing an expression of individuality?

Would it by extension be okay to ban the burka if the people who wore it were by a significant majority extremists and opposed to democracy and freedom as we know it?

Maybe. But those in favour of the burka would argue that many moderate people also wear it and it is wrong to punish many for the faults of few.

Now let's take this further. The Klu Klux Klan costume is derived from the costumes worn in Spain in Holy Week processions. People participating in such processions are probably not extremists and to ban them from using the costume would be an attack on their religion (even if, in parallel to the burka, the wearing is not a religious but a cultural factor, as nowhere does the Bible say you should celebrate holy week wearing a special costume).

It is of course strange that the KKK should have borrowed a Catholic symbol as the KKK was historically anti-Catholic. But then the burning of the cross is also a Catholic thing, deriving from the Emperor Constantine having converted to Catholicism after (supposedly) seeing a burning cross in the sky. So there is another inconsistency for you.

However, I have no doubt that if I took to wearing a KKK costume and burnt crosses people would think I'm a raving racist and any attempt to explain that I'm exercising an ancient Catholic tradition that has nothing to with racism wold fall on deaf ears. I'd probably be banned from doing that (in Switzerland definitely )

However, in Spain people would immediately know what it is about and nobody would think of the KKK.

So sometimes what is okay and what isn't depends on where you are.

And sometimes symbols do get banned because somebody misuses them.
  #218  
Old 13.11.2009, 13:20
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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The reason is being brainwashed in childhood, that you will go to hell if you don't wear it, in addition to social uncomfort or even being obliged.
If they wear it here, their kid will probably also do it in future,...
Some would say that everything we do is a result of brainwashing. What is brainwashing and what is education/upbringing. There is no possible way to define what brainwashing exactly is and philosophically/scientifically what is free-will is (yet).

Your point is one that just goes in circles.

The only consistent point we can defend is the freedom to live as one 'chooses' without harmfully affecting others.

I also find it ridiculously hyprocritical and inconsistent that posters here will compain about the non-democracy of certain islamic states and then in the same sentence prescribe the same for here.

I also find it the most ridiculous argument to say, well they wouldn't treat us well over there, so why should we treat them well over here. If you can't see the irony/inconsistency in that, then I recommend a few years of brainwashing to get your head in order.
This user would like to thank HashBrown for this useful post:
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Old 13.11.2009, 13:30
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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Some would say that everything we do is a result of brainwashing. What is brainwashing and what is education/upbringing. There is no possible way to define what brainwashing exactly is and philosophically/scientifically what is free-will is (yet).
How do we know that free will or objective thoughts exist at all? Maybe all conflicts of culture, religion and philosophy are just conflicts between different types of brainwashing.

However, for society to work properly, we have to have some working definition of what goes and what doesn't. As we don't know whether we are objectively brainwashed or objectively right, or whether there is even a difference between the two, we should maybe just go with what the majority thinks is right. This is the basis of democracy, ie, we accept as a working approximation of the truth the errors that the majority mistake for the truth and accept as a working approximation of unnacceptability that which the majority consider to be that.

Or put it this way. If there were a computer or an oracle or a holy book or a dictator and we knew that everything he, she or it said was always right and in our best interests, we wouldn't need to ask the people and expose ourselves to their possible errors of judgement.

The extension of this argument is that you accept what the majority want even if it is unjust in your eyes.

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Your point is one that just goes in circles.

The only consistent point we can defend is the freedom to live as one 'chooses' without harmfully affecting others.
Such an argument also goes in circles as what is harful to others is also a question of point of view. Scientifically speaking, everything is interconnected and everything effects everything else. A butterfly flapping its wings in Inverness can cause a hurricane in Timbuktoo. So the question is not whether harm can be caused but what level of risk is acceptable, and that is a question of philosophy and culture and hence brainwashing.

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I also find it ridiculously hyprocritical and inconsistent that posters here will compain about the non-democracy of certain islamic states and then in the same sentence prescribe the same for here.

I also find it the most ridiculous argument to say, well they wouldn't treat us well over there, so why should we treat them well over here. If you can't see the irony/inconsistency in that, then I recommend a few years of brainwashing to get your head in order.
Which just illustrates the above points.
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Old 13.11.2009, 13:43
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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How de we know that free will or objective thoughts exist at all? Maybe all conflicts of culture, religion and philosophy are just conflicts between different types of brainwashing.

However, for society to work properly, we have to have some working definition of what goes and what doesn't. As we don't know whether we are objectively brainwashed or objectively right, or whether there is even a difference between the two, we should maybe just go with what the majority thinks is right. This is the basis of democracy, ie, we accept as a working approximation of the truth the errors that the majority mistake for the truth and accept as a working approximation of unnacceptability that which the majority consider to be that.

Or put it this way. If there was a computer or an oracle or a holy book or a dictator and we know that everything he, she or it said was always right, we wouldn't need to ask the people and expose ourselves to their possible errors of judgement.



Such an argument also goes in circles as what is harful to others is also a question of point of view. Scientifically speaking, everything is interconnected and everything effects everything else. A butterfly flapping its wings in Inverness can cause a hurricane in Timbuktoo. So the question is how much harm is acceptable and that is a question of philosophy and culture and hence brainwashing.



Which just illustrates the above points.

What a bunch of mumbo jumbo.

First, your introduction of chaos and complexity theory. First a butterfly flapping its wings cant cause a hurricane elsewhere; the correlations die out fast. Stop quoting pop science, please. It was used as way help imagine what chaos mean, but it's not true. As for inter-connectedness, you just tossed it, but there is no relevance to the argument I posed. We can argue science and sociophysics elsewhere if you like, but please get it somewhat right first.

As for democracy and majority rules, actually in all democracies I know of there are protections against mob rule of the majority against minorities. There are also specific statement of rights. Also, there is not such thing as trust as you attempt to describe. We have rules that adapt and change with the times. And that's what we're discussing here: whether to overrule a fundamental right - i.e., is wearing a burqa to be considered banned like walking around naked.

So what are you trying to say? You've mixed in disparate ideas and they don't relate to each other.

As for brainwashing, always please refer to the context in which i made the statement: in response to a previous post, not some general statement. (Your first paragraph agrees with what I am saying in some sense.)
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