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Old 19.11.2009, 10:12
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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Me being A Muslim, I always was afraid that I will be forced by my husband to wear a burqa, before marrying
First of all, many thanks for your post which is for a change in this discussion, from someone who IS actually affected by the topic.

Anyway, I always thought that burqa is a culture thing, but from your words above, it seems to you to be an Islam (religion) thing. How do you actually see this?
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Old 19.11.2009, 15:22
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

The Burka makes people feel uneasy, however - not at all if I was visiting Saudi Arabia or any other country where it is normal dress.
It is pretty horrific looking too.

Its not a cultural norm for the Burka to be worn here. We all respect other country's cultures and beliefs when we travel - I'd even wear it if it was expected in that country and I really wanted to travel there, why not.

But just as we respect other country's culture - keep elbows and knees covered etc...don't wonder down the street in a bikini in Thailand...
Shouldn't the fact that it makes people uneasy mean that they should avoid wearing it when travelling to Western countries? Out of respect?

It must be the media fault but it is subject to abuse, is that a man under there? Does he have a gun or a bomb? Its sad but I would cr*p it getting on a plane home to Manchester and there were loads of people wearing the Burka. However should I choose to fly with Saudi Airlines then I should expect it.

Banning it though? It is a freedom of choice and we are living in the 'free' world. If people are worried that the women are oppressed then is it not better to have support groups to help women in those situations.
Can they just not ask them nicely not to wear it? ha ha

Also, you can't intergrate wearing that - Its like if I decided to wear a full St Georges flag outfit and then wonder why people are staring at me and why I don't get invited round for coffee!
  #263  
Old 19.11.2009, 15:23
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

The Burka makes people feel uneasy, however - not at all if I was visiting Saudi Arabia or any other country where it is normal dress.
It is pretty horrific looking too.

Its not a cultural norm for the Burka to be worn here. We all respect other country's cultures and beliefs when we travel - I'd even wear it if it was expected in that country and I really wanted to travel there, why not.

But just as we respect other country's culture - keep elbows and knees covered etc...don't wonder down the street in a bikini in Thailand...
Shouldn't the fact that it makes people uneasy mean that they should avoid wearing it when travelling to Western countries? Out of respect?

It must be the media fault but it is subject to abuse, is that a man under there? Does he have a gun or a bomb? Its sad but I would cr*p it getting on a plane home to Manchester and there were loads of people wearing Burkas. If I decided to fly Saudi airlines though - I'd expect it.
  #264  
Old 19.11.2009, 15:52
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

I believe in equal rights; if a guy wants to wear a burqa we should let them.
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Old 20.11.2009, 05:46
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

By the way if anyone panics over my avatar, don't worry the imposter is only David Letterman.
  #266  
Old 20.11.2009, 06:25
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

There's hope yet for reforming Islam or as these men might say returning to the true Islam

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Maajid was thrilled to discover two of the men who had conspired to murder Anwar Sadat – Omar Bayoumi and Dr Tauriq al Sawah – had recently been moved to this dank cell. "This is like meeting Che Guevara – these great forerunners and ideologues who I can now get the benefit of learning from," he says. But "they were very fatherly, and they had been spending all these years studying and learning. And they told me I had got my theology wrong". After more than 20 years in prison, they had reconsidered their views. They told him he was false to believe there was one definitive, literal way to read the Koran. As they told it, in traditional Islam there were many differing interpretations of sharia, from conservative to liberal – yet there had been consensus around once principle: it was never to be enforced by a central authority. Sharia was a voluntary code, not a state law. "It was always left for people to decide for themselves which interpretation they wanted to follow," he says.
These one-time assassins taught Maajid that the idea of using state power to force your interpretation of sharia on everyone was a new and un-Islamic idea, smelted by the Wahabis only a century ago. They had made the mistake of muddling up the enduringly relevant decisions Mohamed made as a spiritual leader with those he made as a political ruler, which he intended to be specific to their time and place.
Maajid's ideology crumbled. "I realised that the idea of enforcing sharia is not consistent with Islam as it's been practised from the beginning. In other words, Islam has always been secular, and I had been totally ignorant of the fact." But he says he found this epiphany excruciating. "I knew if I followed these thoughts wherever they would lead," he says, "I would go from being HT's poster boy to being their fallen angel."
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...n-1821215.html
  #267  
Old 21.11.2009, 14:15
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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As for burqas, I do think they are creepy and that they are a symbol of the repression of women in certain cultures. Even though I am usually against draconian legislation, I do think the law would be appropriate.
Of course it represents repression of women.
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Old 21.11.2009, 14:22
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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I also find it ridiculously hyprocritical and inconsistent that posters here will compain about the non-democracy of certain islamic states and then in the same sentence prescribe the same for here.
Is it about democracy?

Isn't it, at the end of the day, about protecting the rights of women?
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Old 21.11.2009, 14:35
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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Centuries of wars and colonial rule certainly left their scars.
Those Muslim Ottomans who dominated the Middle East from the Middle Ages until 1918 have indeed left lasting scars.

Even 30 years of rule by the more enlightened French and British before granting the Middle East their freedom haven't been enough to remove the scars left by hundreds of years of rule by Muslim imperialists.

Peaceful Muslims in the Middle East being forced by their Muslim and then later Ottoman Muslim overlords to repeatedly attempt to invade Europe has also changed the character of the Middle East.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ottoman_empire.svg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Age-of-caliphs.png

Ottoman colonialists have a lot to answer for. I agree with you 100%.

Southern Europe and Spain didn't escape unscarred from this Ottoman aggression either.

Last edited by gpzrd350; 21.11.2009 at 14:49.
  #270  
Old 21.11.2009, 14:53
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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Is it about democracy?

Isn't it, at the end of the day, about protecting the rights of women?
You protect someone's rights by taking away their right do something? Interesting.
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  #271  
Old 21.11.2009, 19:25
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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You protect someone's rights by taking away their right do something? Interesting.
Strange the convoluted ways of democracy...your statement reminded me of another such statement.
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Old 21.11.2009, 20:02
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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You protect someone's rights by taking away their right do something? Interesting.
And the right taken away would be the right by other Muslims to force women to wear Burkas.

Should Muslims be allowed to wear Burkas if they wish?

Yes, if the majority of Swiss people don't find it objectionable.
  #273  
Old 21.11.2009, 20:26
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

I am very curious for any evidence that proves usage of Burgas or similar full body covering during mohammad's time.
Many believe it was not that strict at his time.

Also to say white has been main color used not dark ones due to the heat.
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Old 21.11.2009, 20:32
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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Is it about democracy?

Isn't it, at the end of the day, about protecting the rights of women?
Rights of women ??? Who talks right now about the rights of women ? What is the topic you have in mind ? Who is protecting the rights of women ????
  #275  
Old 21.11.2009, 20:37
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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And the right taken away would be the right by other Muslims to force women to wear Burkas.

Should Muslims be allowed to wear Burkas if they wish?

Yes, if the majority of Swiss people don't find it objectionable.
The point rather is, whether fathers and brothers and husbands should have the right to force veils, tchadors, burqas, etc, unto their women

In Switzerland, it locally will depend on whether people in case of an initiative are ready to accept that "right" and whether people will believe that all this Mummenschanz is a thing of "free choice" by the women in question !
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Old 21.11.2009, 20:51
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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Rights of women ??? Who talks right now about the rights of women ? What is the topic you have in mind ? Who is protecting the rights of women ????
I know some people like to frame these debates in as tight a format as possible, but the rights of women and burkas are obvioulsy very much interlinked.

Not unless Muslim men have stopped forcing some women to wear burkas.

Have they?
  #277  
Old 21.11.2009, 21:06
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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I know some people like to frame these debates in as tight a format as possible, but the rights of women and burkas are obvioulsy very much interlinked.

Not unless Muslim men have stopped forcing some women to wear burkas.

Have they?
Sometimes women freely choose to wear burqas, sometimes other women force women to wear burqas. It isn't always the men.
  #278  
Old 21.11.2009, 21:26
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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And the right taken away would be the right by other Muslims to force women to wear Burkas.

Should Muslims be allowed to wear Burkas if they wish?

Yes, if the majority of Swiss people don't find it objectionable.
No one has the right to force someone else to wear something.

If a case ended up in front of the courts they would not recognise the right of a husband to force his wife to wear a headscarf or anything else.

So which right exactly is this that you're talking about taking away? And where is this right written and enforced?

(NB: Obviously I'm not talking about the Appenzellers asking German hikers to put clothes on!)
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Old 21.11.2009, 21:36
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

For the record I am not arguing in favour of headscarves, burqas or any other Muslim dress for women. I'm not even in favour of 'modest' dressing.

Equally I don't think this is a matter that the secular state should get involved in.

The rights or view of women within Islam and the development of feminism there is a matter for Muslims. Any effort to particularly restrict Muslims or tell them what to do is undesirable . . . it looks discriminatory and is likely to fuel extremism both on the Muslim side and the populist-Right in Switzerland.
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Old 21.11.2009, 21:37
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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I know some people like to frame these debates in as tight a format as possible, but the rights of women and burkas are obvioulsy very much interlinked.

Not unless Muslim men have stopped forcing some women to wear burkas.

Have they?
In reply to the question, NO, they have NOT stopped. The wearing of veils etc is not so much a right of women, but a right of men forcing women to do so. And in this I refer to the reality of life in Muslim lands. I do not quite see that Switzerland (or any other West-European country) should accept the right of Muslim men to force their notions through. What I however detest is to see Western countries indirectly but heavily acting against Arab countries which do not accept the right of men to command women into the wearing of veils etc.
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