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Old 21.11.2009, 21:38
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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Sometimes women freely choose to wear burqas, sometimes other women force women to wear burqas. It isn't always the men.
Admittedly yes, but usually it IS men. And often it is wifes of such men
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Old 21.11.2009, 21:55
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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I am very curious for any evidence that proves usage of Burgas or similar full body covering during mohammad's time.
Many believe it was not that strict at his time.

Also to say white has been main color used not dark ones due to the heat.
You have to see that all this veiling in reality was a reaction of women to the realities of the desert and the reality of sandstorms. If you are on your way during a sandstorm, for instance in Nouakchott you learn what it is. I once walked back from the airport of Nouakchott to the Hotel (lack of taxis, not heroism or fitness awareness!). I to my astonishment saw a blonde chap in the mirror. I first emptied my bag, opened the camera and got all the sand out, emptied the sand from the bag, and finally took a shower, and when I got back, there no longer was a blonde guy around !
-
similar one day in Cairo in 1976. The sand-cover was about on the height of the 3rd floor. And only particularily determined locals and foreigners were around. We of that travel group had to share rooms as hotel capacity in that time was scarce in Egypt then and my companion and me had just decided to act against certain insects in the room ! and he went out first, then I treated the room and then fled out. Again, no heroism but just the determination not to do suicide !
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Old 21.11.2009, 23:39
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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Admittedly yes, but usually it IS men. And often it is wifes of such men
It is the same as nuns wearing the habit. they have chosen to wear it. Now some of that may be due to the fact that most societies are still male-dominated. Just as with female mutilation it is often women that do this to other women. If you look at teenage daughters it is usually female relatives or other women who will tell the girl to dress modestly- not men. They do this because they want the younger women to be like them. If a woman wants to wear the veil that is up to her, but she has no right to pressure other women into wearing it.
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Old 21.11.2009, 23:44
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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It is the same as nuns wearing the habit. they have chosen to wear it. Now some of that may be due to the fact that most societies are still male-dominated. Just as with female mutilation it is often women that do this to other women. If you look at teenage daughters it is usually female relatives or other women who will tell the girl to dress modestly- not men. They do this because they want the younger women to be like them. If a woman wants to wear the veil that is up to her, but she has no right to pressure other women into wearing it.
Reality is that in many societies and places women pressurize other women into certain habits. But it even then usually is something which comes from a man dominated society. And WestEuropean countries should NOT support tradionalists
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Old 21.11.2009, 23:47
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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It is the same as nuns wearing the habit. they have chosen to wear it. Now some of that may be due to the fact that most societies are still male-dominated. Just as with female mutilation it is often women that do this to other women. If you look at teenage daughters it is usually female relatives or other women who will tell the girl to dress modestly- not men. They do this because they want the younger women to be like them. If a woman wants to wear the veil that is up to her, but she has no right to pressure other women into wearing it.
That is not true, nor a fair comparison. Most nuns these days don't wear the full getup. But that's not the same as a woman who is not in a religious order being forced - be it through peer pressure, male dominance or society and laws - to wear a garment that covers her completely.
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Old 21.11.2009, 23:50
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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You have to see that all this veiling in reality was a reaction of women to the realities of the desert and the reality of sandstorms. If you are on your way during a sandstorm, for instance in Nouakchott you learn what it is. I once walked back from the airport of Nouakchott to the Hotel (lack of taxis, not heroism or fitness awareness!). I to my astonishment saw a blonde chap in the mirror. I first emptied my bag, opened the camera and got all the sand out, emptied the sand from the bag, and finally took a shower, and when I got back, there no longer was a blonde guy around !
-
similar one day in Cairo in 1976. The sand-cover was about on the height of the 3rd floor. And only particularily determined locals and foreigners were around. We of that travel group had to share rooms as hotel capacity in that time was scarce in Egypt then and my companion and me had just decided to act against certain insects in the room ! and he went out first, then I treated the room and then fled out. Again, no heroism but just the determination not to do suicide !
Reminds me of Lawrence of Arabia, men in long flowing robes are so appealing. From the 1962 film. Scene featuring Peter O'Toole and Anthony Quayle. Lawrence and Farraj visit Cairo to tell Dryden and the British officers that the Arabs have taken Aqaba. Lawrence turns up in Arabic dress... 'we have taken Aqaba- the wogs have' - 'First I want a room with bed and sheets'... 'you'd better get into some trousers.'

All I need is that and some Ney music

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Old 21.11.2009, 23:57
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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That is not true, nor a fair comparison. Most nuns these days don't wear the full getup. But that's not the same as a woman who is not in a religious order being forced - be it through peer pressure, male dominance or society and laws - to wear a garment that covers her completely.


No I guess that you are right, women not in an order at least get to have sex and eat pretty much what they like. I think that the Burqa and the habit are pretty much the same though.
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Old 22.11.2009, 07:47
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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The rights or view of women within Islam and the development of feminism there is a matter for Muslims.
Not when they are living in Switzerland it isn't.

Women have rights in Switzerland by law. In Switzerland, all women and men abide by the same law. Muslim and non Muslim alike.
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  #289  
Old 22.11.2009, 07:53
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

The Burka is only part of this issue.

What do Europeans think of Islam in general?

EUROPEANS THINK ISLAM IS DANGEROUS

AN "overwhelming majority" of Europeans believe immigration from Islamic countries is a threat to their traditional way of life, a survey revealed last night.

The poll, carried out across 21 countries, found "widespread anti-immigration sentiment", but warned Europe's Muslim population will treble in the next 17 years.

And with the EU Muslim population expected to reach 15 per cent by 2025 it predicts: "Any deterioration on the international front will be felt most severely in Europe.

It reported "a severe deficit of trust is found between the Western and Muslim communities", with most people wanting less interaction with the Muslim world.

And it concludes: "An overwhelming majority of the surveyed populations in Europe believe greater interaction between Islam and the West is a threat." Backbench Tory MP David Davies told the Sunday Express: "I am not surprised by these findings. People are fed up with multiculturalism and being told they have to give up their way of life.

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/...m-is-dangerous
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  #290  
Old 22.11.2009, 08:17
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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"If the number of women wearing a burqa increases, we could study a possible ban," said Widmer-Schlumpf, 53, at a news conference to which she wore a short skirt and black leather boots.

But she said the veils weren't currently on the government's agenda.
I ask myself why do we suddenly have these kind of issues?
Minorets, Mosques and Burqas.

Is it becuase the Muslim religion is expanding?
Is it becuse more Muslims are moving into Western Europe?
Is it becuase the religion is becoming more strict?

Just reading this forum lately; it is religion........religion.......religion issues and debates, criticism and insults.

If everyone was an atheist and was just a good human being (respect and caring) to everyone, there would be none of the problems we now have.
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Old 22.11.2009, 08:18
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

The report itself was carried out by Media Tenor International is a global content analysis organization based in Zurich, Switzerland that monitors print, broadcast and online news in more than 15 languages and 35 countries. Its research focuses on the portrayal of countries, individuals and institutions in leading media outlets.

Islam and the West:
Annual Report on the State of Dialogue
January 2008

http://www.weforum.org/pdf/C100/Islam_West.pdf

"Clear majorities in all European countries surveyed see greater interaction between the West and Muslim worlds
as a threat. This is true of 79% of the population in Denmark, 67% in Italy, 67% in the Netherlands, 68% in Spain, 65%
in Sweden and 59% in Belgium. This corresponds to a growing fear among Europeans of a perceived “Islamic
threat” to their cultural identities, driven in part by rising immigration from predominantly Muslim regions.
A recent poll found that only 21% of Europeans supported Turkey’s bid for EU membership (p.26)"
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Old 22.11.2009, 09:10
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

Could somebody explain the purpose and need of the burqa being worn in Western Europe please?
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  #293  
Old 22.11.2009, 11:48
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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You protect someone's rights by taking away their right do something? Interesting.
Sound bite from ivory tower? Rights come with responsibility. Islam as an ideology is clearly anti secularism, anti democracy, anti plurality, anti homosexuality, anti idol worshippers, anti religious tolerance, pro theocracy, pro sharia, pro multiple rules for different citizens of the same country, anti freedom of speech etc etc.

No tolerance for an intolerant ideology. Screwing for virginity is a again a nice sound bite but who here said that we want to screw for virginity?
We just want to protect ourselves by wearing durable condoms. If a woman with open arms associates herself with an ideology that is anti secularism, anti free speech anti individuality then yes her rights are not my highest priority. People bent on destructing the foundation of a building cannot demand right of acess to the building called modern Europe.
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  #294  
Old 22.11.2009, 11:58
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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And with the EU Muslim population expected to reach 15 per cent by 2025 it predicts: "Any deterioration on the international front will be felt most severely in Europe.
There of course are big differences per country. The Arab population (with and without French citizenship) in France already now is clearly above 15% and may reach some 25% within some 10 years. The Turkish population in Germany (with and without German citizenship) is now a bit less than 10% and may reach 15% in some 10 years. While the Arab and Turkish shares in Italy are surprisingly low at less than 5% each, which means even if taken together som 10%. But this "bundling together" done by the xenophobes is rubbish, as there is no "Muslim" identity or culture. A Bosnian, a Senegalese and an Indonesian Muslim do not share culture or identity.


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Backbench Tory MP David Davies told the Sunday Express: "I am not surprised by these findings. People are fed up with multiculturalism and being told they have to give up their way of life.
This Mr Davies simply does not realize what "multiculturalism" means. It does not mean that somebody/anybody gives up his/her way of life but quite to the contrary that different cultures live tolerantly together, side by side. For instance in France, nobody gives up his way of life, and I here refer to tolerant pro-multiculturalism people. In Switzerland, nobody gave up the way of life, and this in spite of already having cultural differences inside the country.
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Old 22.11.2009, 12:08
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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But this "bundling together" done by the xenophobes is rubbish, as there is no "Muslim" identity or culture.
So if a Swiss research team points out that Europe's Muslim population is predicted to reach 15 per cent by 2025 then that makes them xenophobes who produce rubbish research?

Your approach is a fascinating way of trying to minimise the psychological impact of the Muslim population in Europe growing so large so fast - accuse the researchers of being xenophobes who produce rubbish research.

I take it you can't actually argue with the 15% figure but can merely throw insults at the Swiss researchers?
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Old 22.11.2009, 12:09
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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This Mr Davies simply does not realize what "multiculturalism" means.
Typical response. He doesn't "understand".

But you do of course...
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Old 22.11.2009, 12:31
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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It does not mean that somebody/anybody gives up his/her way of life but quite to the contrary that different cultures live tolerantly together, side by side.
Assuming the different cultures don't have any higher intolerant religious goals.

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For instance in France, nobody gives up his way of life, and I here refer to tolerant pro-multiculturalism people.
I think people who moved out of predominantly Muslim areas of Paris or those who can't drive through a street because it is locked down for few hours on Friday so Muslims can pray would disagree. Your freedom ends when it infringes on other peoples freedoms. If the Mosque is full pray at home.
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streets in red are completely closed off by the Muslims and the residents cannot enter or leave for about two hours. Streets in orange are blocked for vehicles, while streets in green are open for traffic but the sidewalks are taken over for prayer.




http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/20...t-prayers.html

http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/20...udspeaker.html

No other religion in modern time across countries and continents has consistently shown intolrance and arrogance like Islam has.
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Old 22.11.2009, 12:36
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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streets in red are completely closed off by the Muslims and the residents cannot enter or leave for about two hours. Streets in orange are blocked for vehicles, while streets in green are open for traffic but the sidewalks are taken over for prayer.
Those videos are just wow. Wow.

No wonder the majority of Europeans are anti-Islam if that is what they have to look forward to.

Thousands of Muslims worshiping in the streets. I don't think many Europeans would vote for that.
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Old 22.11.2009, 12:49
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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Also, you can't intergrate wearing that (the burka) - Its like if I decided to wear a full St Georges flag outfit and then wonder why people are staring at me and why I don't get invited round for coffee!
Isn't that the point? People who wear burkas or force their women to do so don't want to integrate.
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Old 22.11.2009, 12:52
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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Is it becuase the Muslim religion is expanding?
Is it becuse more Muslims are moving into Western Europe?
Is it becuase the religion is becoming more strict?
> a lot is talked about the expansion of Islam, without their being much substance, Hinduism and Buddhism are expanding faster, and Christiandom is not receding. The relative expansion is population growth and conversion of "second-tier religions" people to one of the "biggies"
> Turks started to immigrate to Germany in a big way in the 1960ies, and Algerians, Tunisians and Moroccans to France in the 1950ies and 60ies in an even bigger way
> Islam in general is not becoming more strict. Stricter in some places, less so in others, by average the same
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an important factor for the alarmism have been terror attacks mostly carried out by extremist fundamentalist movements. And many Westerners eating the propaganda of people like Osama BinLaden who claim that they act "in the name of Islam" while they in reality act in the name of themselves only.
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