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Old 22.11.2009, 12:57
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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So if a Swiss research team points out that Europe's Muslim population is predicted to reach 15 per cent by 2025 then that makes them xenophobes who produce rubbish research?

Your approach is a fascinating way of trying to minimise the psychological impact of the Muslim population in Europe growing so large so fast - accuse the researchers of being xenophobes who produce rubbish research.

I take it you can't actually argue with the 15% figure but can merely throw insults at the Swiss researchers?
They deserve all insults possible. As they take "Muslims" alltogether as a single group and THIS IS rubbish, to put it as mildly as possible.

Their research is just a paper destruction exercise, they should be ashamed of !

There is no "Muslim population" ! There is an Arab population (many of them Christians), there is a Turkish population, there is a Kosovari/Albanian population (many of them Christians), etc.

And you may have seen many such "research-exercises" done by others in the past, of no real value actually, but simply copied by that new one
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Old 22.11.2009, 13:00
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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an important factor for the alarmism have been terror attacks mostly carried out by extremist fundamentalist movements. And many Westerners eating the propaganda of people like Osama BinLaden who claim that they act "in the name of Islam" while they in reality act in the name of themselves only.
There is more to it than that. For instance

Muslim Britain split over 'martyrs' of 7/7

13% of British Muslims think that the four men who carried out the London Tube and bus bombings of July 7 2005 should be regarded as "martyrs"

7% agree that suicide attacks on civilians in the UK can be justified in some circumstances, rising to 16 % for a military target

16% of British Muslims say that while the attacks may have been wrong, the cause was right

16% would be "indifferent" if a family member decided to join al-Qaeda and two per cent would be proud

56% of British Muslims believe that the Government is not doing enough to fight extremism, more than the 49 per cent of the whole population who agree

50% think the intelligence services have the right to infiltrate Muslim organisations to gather information about their activities and the way they obtain funding

65% of British Muslims say that their community needs to do more to integrate properly with British society

35% say that they would feel proud if a close family member joined the police

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...icle682621.ece

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Old 22.11.2009, 13:01
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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They deserve all insults possible. As they take "Muslims" alltogether as a single group and THIS IS rubbish, to put it as mildly as possible.

Their research is just a paper destruction exercise, they should be ashamed of !
So all of those Muslims in Europe aren't really Muslims?

Right...

I can see that you have your own personal and very special logic at work here.
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  #304  
Old 22.11.2009, 13:04
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Freedom goes both ways..

Burqas, minarets...
Going to a muslim country, I (have to) adapt to their ways. I find this normal - I am the guest, and cannot expect them to adapt to me. I always found strange how expats sometimes (am thinking of Dubai) go all out and wear revealing and outrageous clothing, in a society that frowns on all skin display. I know that I will hear muezzins early in the morning, and that if Ramadan is on, it will be difficult to find food during the day, and almost impossible to drink a glass of wine out of international hotels.

In the same way, I expect guests here to behave in the same way. A muslim here remain a guest; I am not religious at all, but the local culture here is not traditionally muslim. So, I am happy to see bell tours, I am happy to hear the bells in the morning; if people choose to wear a cross, that is their choice, and a nun in her habit doesn't offend me; I don't agree with HER choice to take the order, but it remains her choice. No-one has pushed me into doing the same, no-one requires that I pray with her, nor that I wear the same garb. Actually, no-one forces me to have my children educated by them either! (thanks heavens).

I don't like to see burqas around - not at all. if they want to cover their faces, so be it, but it doesn't have to take the shape of a tent around them - beyond all, it is also dangerous, because it limits identification of the individual (there could be a known terrorist carrying bombs, and little can be done to identify the guy or gal). Their identification papers to enter the country must be with un-veiled pictures, and upon entry identification must be possible in person.
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  #305  
Old 22.11.2009, 13:04
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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Typical response. He doesn't "understand".

But you do of course...
It is simple. Multi-Culturalism means MULTI = more than one. If the natives give up their culture, it is MONO-culture and not Multi. Multi means that the "natives" retain their culture but accept and tolerate different cultures of newcomers.
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  #306  
Old 22.11.2009, 13:06
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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an important factor for the alarmism have been terror attacks mostly carried out by extremist fundamentalist movements. And many Westerners eating the propaganda of people like Osama BinLaden who claim that they act "in the name of Islam" while they in reality act in the name of themselves only.
A third of Muslim students back killings

Radicalism and support for sharia is strong in British universities

ALMOST a third of British Muslim students believe killing in the name of Islam can be justified, according to a poll

The YouGov poll for the Centre for Social Cohesion (CSC) will raise concerns about the extent of campus radicalism.

In the report, 40% of Muslim students said it was unacceptable for Muslim men and women to associate freely. Homophobia was rife, with 25% saying they had little or no respect for gays. The figure was higher (32%) for male Muslim students.

Some of the findings amplify previous research. A report by Policy Exchange last year found that 37% of all Muslims aged 16-24 would prefer to live under a sharia system.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4407115.ece

Last edited by gpzrd350; 22.11.2009 at 14:15.
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Old 22.11.2009, 13:08
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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There is more to it than that. For instance

Muslim Britain split over 'martyrs' of 7/7

13% of British Muslims think that the four men who carried out the London Tube and bus bombings of July 7 2005 should be regarded as "martyrs"

7% agree that suicide attacks on civilians in the UK can be justified in some circumstances, rising to 16 % for a military target

16% of British Muslims say that while the attacks may have been wrong, the cause was right

16% would be "indifferent" if a family member decided to join al-Qaeda and two per cent would be proud

56% of British Muslims believe that the Government is not doing enough to fight extremism, more than the 49 per cent of the whole population who agree

50% think the intelligence services have the right to infiltrate Muslim organisations to gather information about their activities and the way they obtain funding

65% of British Muslims say that their community needs to do more to integrate properly with British society

35% say that they would feel proud if a close family member joined the police

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...icle682621.ece
It shows that only a very small minority is in favour of extremism, and more than 50% are in favour of more police action, a clear majority is in favour of a better integration, and even a third would be proud if one of the family joined the police (which may be more than the average). THIS is the problem of the extremists, that they clearly are on the losing side. And their attempt to stop this by "actions" indeed IS dangerous.
  #308  
Old 22.11.2009, 13:08
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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an important factor for the alarmism have been terror attacks mostly carried out by extremist fundamentalist movements. And many Westerners eating the propaganda of people like Osama BinLaden who claim that they act "in the name of Islam" while they in reality act in the name of themselves only.

Battle for the heart of Islam

According to a YouGov poll published yesterday, some 6% of British Muslims consider the attacks were justified. That equates to about 100,000 people who, while they may not be willing to carry out such acts, are willing to support those who do.

Meanwhile, one in four British Muslims — while in no way condoning the bombers' actions — express some understanding for the feelings and motivations that drove them to commit the crimes.

The poll also reveals that some 56% say that, regardless of whether or not they sympathise with the bombers, they do comprehend why some people might carry out such acts.

Also clear from the polling is the level of alienation many British Muslims feel from the rest of society. Nearly one in five (18%) say they feel little or no loyalty to this country, and alienation levels among men, particularly young men, are more than three times higher than those among Muslim women living here.

Some 32% of respondents to the poll believed "western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to bring it to an end". Of these, the equivalent of some 16,000 declared themselves willing to resort to violence if necessary to achieve this.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...fset=12&page=2

Last edited by gpzrd350; 22.11.2009 at 14:16.
  #309  
Old 22.11.2009, 13:10
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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an important factor for the alarmism have been terror attacks mostly carried out by extremist fundamentalist movements. And many Westerners eating the propaganda of people like Osama BinLaden who claim that they act "in the name of Islam" while they in reality act in the name of themselves only.

Why do we indulge the enemy within?

After a gruelling tour of Iraq, the heroes of the Royal Anglian regiment parade through the streets of Luton, in the homeland for which they risked their lives.

Their greeting? With full police protection, a hate-filled mob of Muslims waves placards proclaiming: 'Anglian soldiers: criminals, murderers, terrorists.'

One protester spits at a soldier's mother. Another - for reasons we can only guess - takes photographs of the troops from behind her heavy veil.

Welcome to multicultural Britain, 2009. Of course, in many Muslim countries, any such display of hostility to the armed forces would be mercilessly punished as treachery (and woe betide any woman who dared express a political view in public).

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...my-within.html
  #310  
Old 22.11.2009, 13:11
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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So all of those Muslims in Europe aren't really Muslims?

Right...

I can see that you have your own personal and very special logic at work here.
They are Muslims just as Spaniards and Italians are Christians. But do not identify themselves via the religion but via the nationality (not the countries). A Spanish immigrant is NOT a Catholic immigrant but a Spaniard, an Algerian immigrant is an Arab, even if he is of Muslim religion. A Turkish immigrant sees himself primarily as a Turk. While he most likely is of Muslim religion.
  #311  
Old 22.11.2009, 13:12
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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>
an important factor for the alarmism have been terror attacks mostly carried out by extremist fundamentalist movements. And many Westerners eating the propaganda of people like Osama BinLaden who claim that they act "in the name of Islam" while they in reality act in the name of themselves only.

Islam in Britain has been taken over by the followers of a distorted faith.

We need a reformation to rescue it

Taj Hargey

This week I not only won a libel case in the High Court but a victory against religious fanaticism within Britain's Muslim community...

...As the head of a progressive Muslim organisation in Britain that is dedicated to an enlightened, egalitarian and erudite Islam, I was victimised, like other forward-looking Muslims, by a campaign of classic McCarthyism...

...Any Muslim freethinker is automatically branded as heretical or un-Islamic and excommunicated from the community - and debate is shut down...

...Unfortunately, Islam in Britain has been taken over by the followers of a warped manifestation of the faith. The Muslim Council of Britain, the main Muslim newspapers and many of the big mosques are dominated by men who subscribe to a virulent and backward-looking brand of Islam that has been exported from the Middle East and the Indian sub-continent."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle6069581.ece
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Old 22.11.2009, 13:15
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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an important factor for the alarmism have been terror attacks mostly carried out by extremist fundamentalist movements. And many Westerners eating the propaganda of people like Osama BinLaden who claim that they act "in the name of Islam" while they in reality act in the name of themselves only.
Hate cleric leads jihad cash appeal

Anjem Choudary, who led protests against returning British troops, has urged his followers to send money to 'mujaheddin'

AN Islamic cleric, whose supporters led a hate-filled protest against British troops returning from Iraq, has urged his followers to give cash to front-line mujaheddin fighters.

He has previously called for British women to be forced to wear burqas and for adulterers to be killed. Several radical preachers have previously been jailed for urging British Muslims to give money to Al-Qaeda-linked insurgents in Iraq.



http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle5908534.ece

Last edited by gpzrd350; 22.11.2009 at 14:14.
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Old 22.11.2009, 13:18
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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They are Muslims just as Spaniards and Italians are Christians. But do not identify themselves via the religion but via the nationality (not the countries). A Spanish immigrant is NOT a Catholic immigrant but a Spaniard, an Algerian immigrant is an Arab, even if he is of Muslim religion. A Turkish immigrant sees himself primarily as a Turk. While he most likely is of Muslim religion.
Your logic is very special.
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Old 22.11.2009, 13:22
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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They deserve all insults possible. As they take "Muslims" alltogether as a single group and THIS IS rubbish, to put it as mildly as possible.
No one forced Muslims to associate themselves with Islam. You choose to follow an ideology then why cry if people consider you part of that ideology?
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There is no "Muslim population" ! There is an Arab population (many of them Christians), there is a Turkish population, there is a Kosovari/Albanian population (many of them Christians), etc.
Muslim population = those who by choice follow Islam


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> a lot is talked about the expansion of Islam, without their being much substance, Hinduism and Buddhism are expanding faster, and Christiandom is not receding.
Muslims themselves say that their religion is the fastest growing religion in the world I am ambivalent to their or your claims. Pro democracy, pro tolerance, pro secularism gravitating religions like Buddhism and Hinduism are not causing any problem in the west nor do they have any Dar al Islam type of agenda-

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Islam has been at war with the Western world for fourteen centuries — since its inception. Muslims all over the world still consider themselves to be at war with non-Muslims; this is why Islam refers to us as Dar al-Harb, the “House of War”.The publicly stated goal of Islamic theology and political ideology is to impose the rule of Islam over the entire world, and make it part of Dar al-Islam, the “House of Submission”.
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Old 22.11.2009, 13:22
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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Why do we indulge the enemy within?

After a gruelling tour of Iraq, the heroes of the Royal Anglian regiment parade through the streets of Luton, in the homeland for which they risked their lives.

Their greeting? With full police protection, a hate-filled mob of Muslims waves placards proclaiming: 'Anglian soldiers: criminals, murderers, terrorists.'

One protester spits at a soldier's mother. Another - for reasons we can only guess - takes photographs of the troops from behind her heavy veil.

Welcome to multicultural Britain, 2009. Of course, in many Muslim countries, any such display of hostility to the armed forces would be mercilessly punished as treachery (and woe betide any woman who dared express a political view in public).

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...my-within.html

That Britain is a true democracy is good. But did these soldiers risk their live for their country ? Hardly, they risked their live for the political aims and notions of Tony Blair ! They were active in a bad operation overall. To topple Saddam Hussein al-Takriti was good, but what followed after that, was a disastrously badly conducted operation. To abolish the mostly anti-Saddam armed forces, to send the policemen home, to ban the Ba'ath Party which to most parts was NOT Saddam's party but kept under control by the Secret Service, was wrong. The heavy support, primarily the GWB administration gave to the fundamentalists was disastrous.

And then Luton ?! I know Luton as I often went through the place enroute to Luton-Airport, and it is not exactly the place where I would have done such a parade. There are hundreds of English towns and villages where the soldiers would have been greeted by applause, as also people critical of the Iraq-business support the force.

Sure, you may now tell me that Luton happens to be inside the U.K. territory, which of course is true. But what about being a bit considerate.
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Old 22.11.2009, 13:25
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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Sure, you may now tell me that Luton happens to be inside the U.K. territory, which of course is true. But what about being a bit considerate.
???
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Old 22.11.2009, 13:29
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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Sure, you may now tell me that Luton happens to be inside the U.K. territory, which of course is true. But what about being a bit considerate.
Considerate for who? Most of the Muslims who were there were not Iraqis So wait in earlier post you were saying that there is no thing as Muslims but only Turks, Pakistani, Iraqis etc. If that was the case then why were non Iraqi Muslims demonstrating there? Shows that you are too based in theory and not in reality.
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Old 22.11.2009, 13:30
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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There are hundreds of English towns and villages where the soldiers would have been greeted by applause, as also people critical of the Iraq-business support the force.
Why do refuse to condemn Muslim fanatics who spit and jeer at returning British soldiers?

Your silence speaks volumes.

Not only do you refuse to condemn them, you then try to minimise the significance of their behaviour.
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Old 22.11.2009, 13:33
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???
Luton has a large, mainly Pakistani Muslim community.
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Old 22.11.2009, 13:37
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Luton has a large, mainly Pakistani Muslim community.
So that means that Islamic extremists should be allowed to spit and jeer at returning British soldiers?

Besides, Wollishofener just claimed that a Muslim identity didn't exist...
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