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  #141  
Old 11.11.2009, 15:44
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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Because no one wants to take away the shine from GOD.

In a particular temple in India, women are prohibited from visiting the temple just because the priests are afraid that the diety will run away with the women as he is a bachelor.

Hinduism is atleast honest in this regard
Woman in India can't also go to temple when they are menstruating...

In Buddhism it is considered offensive if a woman touches a monk.
  #142  
Old 11.11.2009, 15:45
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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I see your point. However what the SVP are doing is taking a relatively minor problem and misusing it for their own political means. Clearly some women may wish to wear burkas but this could be difficult to establish. The Swiss goverment should err on the safe side
Only that in this case the SVP's opinion is shared by a good many other parties as well. So why is the SVP in particular "hijacking" anything?
  #143  
Old 11.11.2009, 15:46
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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No software exists that will remove burka and reveal the face from CCTV footage





And the the company will get hit by religious discrimination or wrongly used term racial discrimination lawsuit.
Anyone who wants to commit a crime can cover their face. Are you saying that people in burkas exclusively commit crimes? The criminals will cover their face regardless. Or are you saying that CCTV should be able to moniter everyone all the time?

As for the company being hit with discrimination, in my example it would only occur if the work was effected by the attire. If the work wasn't effected then there is no reason for them being sacked.
  #144  
Old 11.11.2009, 15:46
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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but what does it matter?

why should it make a difference whether the burka is a religious or cultural symbol? If it is wrong to ban one then why is it right to ban the other.

I really don't see what bearing such a differentiation has on the acceptability or otherwise of a ban.

Especially when you are looking at Islam you'll find that the religious aspects of Islam are often deeply entrenched within and sometimes functionally indistuinguishable from Islamic culture.

I don't think that there is any verse in the Koran that specifically says a mosque must have a minaret, yet muslims consider a minaret ban to be an attack on Islam as a religion.

There must be hundreds of other examples.
easy Amogles, you are misreading me...
I don't make any distinction on the acceptability of a ban on burqas, regardless on religious or cultural grounds. Such a ban would be wrong unless is based on solid practical grounds (necessity,whether or not founded, to show your face at airport for passport controls for example).

What I am pointing out is that there is a difference between Islam and local cultural custom (which, by the way, may have very little to do with Islam). The Qur'an advocate modesty in the dressing style of women, not a full burqas. Unfortunately, mistakenly mix the teaching of the Qur'an and cultural customs (like the burqas) is what stokes the fire of those who intentionally mix the two for their own reasons, whether political or otherwise.

Let's not forget that until not long ago women used to wear a black veil to cover their heads when going to a Catholic Mass, but no-one has ever assumed that being a Catholic implies that you have to wear a veil at Mass, or that such veil was intrinsically linked to being Catholic.

the burqas is just a custom (whether chosen by free will or imposed) and it needs to be kept well separated from Islam religion. It may be difficult to differentiate, but a ban on burqas would not be an attack on Islam.

And, just to make sure i don't get misunderstood, such a ban should not be acceptable bar the security concerns express before which have nothing to to with being a Muslim, more to do with the fact that, if you refuse to remove the burqas, I have really not way of knowing who you are. Bear in mind that similar measures are already in force (they make you take your sunglasses off at passport control, don't they?)
  #145  
Old 11.11.2009, 15:47
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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Woman in India can't also go to temple when they are menstruating... .
I wonder how is that regulated
  #146  
Old 11.11.2009, 15:48
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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I wonder how is that regulated
It wouldn't be a good job
  #147  
Old 11.11.2009, 15:49
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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Woman in India can't also go to temple when they are menstruating...
and who is going to check?

Urban myth nowadays
  #148  
Old 11.11.2009, 15:50
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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So you agree that burka is a way to put women down in their place just like Roman Catholic church not allowing women to become priests? Btw does Islam allow women priests?

Women who wear full burka in Pak AF are the ones who have been told from a young age by parents and society that not wearing a full burka is a bad thing. Lot of them come from impoverished and rural background too. Don't forget not wearing one wmight get you killed too.

Pakistani women can be very stunning and hiding them behind full burka should be a capital punishment Educated Pakistani girls from major cities in Pakistan would hate to wear a full burka in normal times.
I am neither for or against the Burqa, I neither judge someone who wears it or who doesn't. I am for the freedom of choice and mutual respect.
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  #149  
Old 11.11.2009, 15:51
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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Anyone who wants to commit a crime can cover their face. Are you saying that people in burkas exclusively commit crimes? The criminals will cover their face regardless. Or are you saying that CCTV should be able to moniter everyone all the time?
Only if there was a general ban on people being allowed o cover their faces in public, it would be easier to single out those with malicious intent.

This is not just hypothetical. There was a case not too long ago of a group of burka-clad people robbing a jewellery shop in the UK. The shopkeeper (a Hindu) apparently was suspicious from the moment they walked into the shop but political correctnes prevented him from throwing them out before they could cause any damage.

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As for the company being hit with discrimination, in my example it would only occur if the work was effected by the attire. If the work wasn't effected then there is no reason for them being sacked.
It's very difficult if not impossible to prove that a customer walked away because the salesperson or agent was wearing a burka. So it is impossible to prove that the person's choice of clothing is damaging the company. The same argument can also be raised for other types of clothing and attire (for example excessive piercings, political slogans on T-shirts etc). This is why many companies have dress codes for customer facing empoyees.
  #150  
Old 11.11.2009, 15:53
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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Anyone who wants to commit a crime can cover their face. Are you saying that people in burkas exclusively commit crimes?
I am saying that burka will become a good cover for people wanting to commit crime or terrorist acts and not get caught on CCTV if there are lot of people wearing burkas in the future. Muslim or non Muslim. How many times do you see people wearing masks in public areas unless it is Halloween?

Remember this guy? At least he was caught.

  #151  
Old 11.11.2009, 15:54
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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So you agree that burka is a way to put women down in their place just like Roman Catholic church not allowing women to become priests? Btw does Islam allow women priests?

Women who wear full burka in Pak AF are the ones who have been told from a young age by parents and society that not wearing a full burka is a bad thing. Lot of them come from impoverished and rural background too. Don't forget not wearing one wmight get you killed too.

Pakistani women can be very stunning and hiding them behind full burka should be a capital punishment Educated Pakistani girls from major cities in Pakistan would hate to wear a full burka in normal times.
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Only if there was a general ban on people being allowed o cover their faces in public, it would be easier to single out those with malicious intent.

This is not just hypothetical. There was a case not too long ago of a group of burka-clad people robbing a jewellery shop in the UK.



It's very difficult if not impossible to prove that a customer walked away because the salesperson or agent was wearing a burka. So it is impossible to prove that the person's choice of clothing is damaging the company. The same argument can also be raised for other types of clothing and attire (for example excessive piercings, political slogans on T-shirts etc). This is why many companies have dress codes for customer facing empoyees.
I bet if Bulgari in the Bahnhofstrasse in Zurich saw a group of Burqa clad women come into their store they would gleam with delight not call the cops...
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  #152  
Old 11.11.2009, 15:59
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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I bet if Bulgari in the Bahnhofstrasse in Zurich saw a group of Burqa clad women come into their store they would gleam with delight not call the cops...
Assuming they are genuine burka ladies and not pretend lady boys trying to pull a fast one
  #153  
Old 11.11.2009, 16:01
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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How many times do you see people wearing masks in public areas unless it is Halloween?
Trick or treat!

  #154  
Old 11.11.2009, 16:03
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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Trick or treat!

but he can identify them, even if they are fake security guys
  #155  
Old 11.11.2009, 16:03
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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Trick or treat!

Cops?
  #156  
Old 11.11.2009, 16:03
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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easy Amogles, you are misreading me...
I don't make any distinction on the acceptability of a ban on burqas, regardless on religious or cultural grounds. Such a ban would be wrong unless is based on solid practical grounds (necessity,whether or not founded, to show your face at airport for passport controls for example).
okay, pont taken.

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What I am pointing out is that there is a difference between Islam and local cultural custom (which, by the way, may have very little to do with Islam). The Qur'an advocate modesty in the dressing style of women, not a full burqas. Unfortunately, mistakenly mix the teaching of the Qur'an and cultural customs (like the burqas) is what stokes the fire of those who intentionally mix the two for their own reasons, whether political or otherwise.
okay, so far so good. But isn't this "mixing of the two" happening on both sides, so not just by those who may have an axe to grind with Islam, but also by moslems themselves who see Islam being attacked when (by your admission) it isn't.

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the burqas is just a custom (whether chosen by free will or imposed) and it needs to be kept well separated from Islam religion. It may be difficult to differentiate, but a ban on burqas would not be an attack on Islam.
I would accept that argument if I saw clearer evidence of muslims arguing on both sides of the argument rather than being almost exclusively against the ban.

What I'm trying to say is that although strictly speaking and from a theoretical theological point of view it may be so that the burka has nothing to do with Islam, by their reaction to this argument, muslims are making it part of the debate on Islam.
  #157  
Old 11.11.2009, 16:05
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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Cops?

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  #158  
Old 11.11.2009, 16:07
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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That's exactly what you wish don't you?

By the way I never understood how changing religion works. Is it like changing banks that you transfer your account from Christian God to Allah or hindu gods?

How is division of punishment/rewards decided? Who gets to fry you in fire or who gives you virgins in reward?
If my wish was to come true... I have better things to wish for
Someone's life or religion is not really my concern, but yes it can be another one of your learned "assumptions"

If someone wants to change the "label" than people have different motives. Few years back "Islam label" even attracted some wannabe gangsters and Anarchists as they wanted to be "Taliban bad boys" or were against the capitalist system.

But if someone is really seeking God and True Religion, then he/she would realise they have always been that, and it was just a matter of Realisation.

God is one and so is His religion, though some people want to make it Exclusive and use it as symbol of Prestige or Social standing. i.e. I am better than you because of my car, my job, my bank balance, my belief, my birth etc etc...
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Old 11.11.2009, 16:10
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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I am neither for or against the Burqa, I neither judge someone who wears it or who doesn't. I am for the freedom of choice and mutual respect.
Same here. I'm all for freedom of choice. Unfortunately, as I've said before on this thread, I'm not convinced that all veil-wearing women have this choice.*

The only postive I can see from the ban is that it gives freedom to such women.

Any other reason to impose the ban (such as for security reasons) are suspect in the least.
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Old 11.11.2009, 16:14
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Re: Switzerland could ban burqas in future!

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There are even women, who would not marry a guy if HE asks her to go out and have a career.
hehehe.. the reason I broke up with my first Swiss gf is when we talked about getting married, having kids... going back to work after maternity leave... "What??" she said... "going back to work??" it all went downhill after that...
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