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Old 10.12.2009, 12:14
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Ausschaffungsinitiative [Expulsion Initiative]

I see from Tages Anzeiger that the SVP is pushing further for an Ausschaffungsinitiative.

http://www.ausschaffungsinitiative.ch/

Has anyone got any details of the proposals? I assume it's lowering the bar for deporting the non-Swiss.

Would this, for example, affect second generation Balkan refugees?
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Old 10.12.2009, 12:22
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Re: Ausschaffungsinitiative

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I see from Tages Anzeiger that the SVP is pushing further for an Ausschaffungsinitiative.

http://www.ausschaffungsinitiative.ch/

Has anyone got any details of the proposals? I assume it's lowering the bar for deporting the non-Swiss.

Would this, for example, affect second generation Balkan refugees?
It would affect everyone who does not have a Swiss passport and decides to commit one of the crimes listed on your link.

It once again touches some human rights issues: It lists "drug dealing" as one of the offenses that would automatically revoke a residence permit for at least five years. So if a Swiss kid is caught dealing a gram of grass on the schoolyard, it will get pretty much nothing, but his classmate might get kicked out of the country for the same?

The problem is that the initiative mixes serious crimes as murder with some offenses that might not even be crimes as in "abuses the social insurances in any way". Stirring up many things into one unclear soup and bash all "criminal foreigners" is in short what the initiative is about.
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Old 10.12.2009, 12:56
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Re: Ausschaffungsinitiative

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It would affect everyone who does not have a Swiss passport and decides to commit one of the crimes listed on your link.

It once again touches some human rights issues: It lists "drug dealing" as one of the offenses that would automatically revoke a residence permit for at least five years. So if a Swiss kid is caught dealing a gram of grass on the schoolyard, it will get pretty much nothing, but his classmate might get kicked out of the country for the same?

The problem is that the initiative mixes serious crimes as murder with some offenses that might not even be crimes as in "abuses the social insurances in any way". Stirring up many things into one unclear soup and bash all "criminal foreigners" is in short what the initiative is about.
I don't think it will find a majority (but mind you, I said that of the minaret ban as well, so I may be wrong).

However, bear in mind that SVP doesn't always play to win outright. If an initiative such as this one got close to 40% of yes votes it would already count as a moral victory for the SVP as it would once again show that the SVP's message resonates with a considerably larger group of people than would vote SVP outright (SVP is probably at between 23 and 30 percent in the polls, so it would be almost double the lower estimate). The bigger picture is that SVP wants to show the political establishment that they are out of touch on questions of immigration and integration, and that not only SVP voters think this but so must a considerable number of voters of other parties.

Also, if the SVP can come up with another catchy poster such as the minaret one or the sheep one, then the foreign press and the UNO and such organisations can latch onto the anti-Swiss rant which is good for the SVP as one or two of them will definitely say something stupid (like the Senegalese president's remarks on the sheep poster anyone?) which of course make excellent quotes for SVP literature and underscore the SVP's core belief that such bodies are ignorant corrupt meddlers who are just jealous of Switzerland.
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Old 10.12.2009, 13:00
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Re: Ausschaffungsinitiative [Expulsion Initiative]

Would it apply to many second generation immigrants who could get a passport in theory, but hadn't gone through this process?
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Old 10.12.2009, 13:05
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Re: Ausschaffungsinitiative [Expulsion Initiative]

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Would it apply to many second generation immigrants who could get a passport in theory, but hadn't gone through this process?
I don't know if they would refuse a passport over a past cocaine offence, but it certainly would lessen their chances of getting one even without this initiative.

So even without this initiative the incentive is to get a passport before you start being a criminal. Only most criminals are too dumb to think they will ever be caught and so don't bother. And that's not going to change either. So it's all hot air to me. It won't change much.
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Old 10.12.2009, 13:21
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Re: Ausschaffungsinitiative

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It would affect everyone who does not have a Swiss passport and decides to commit one of the crimes listed on your link.

It once again touches some human rights issues: It lists "drug dealing" as one of the offenses that would automatically revoke a residence permit for at least five years. So if a Swiss kid is caught dealing a gram of grass on the schoolyard, it will get pretty much nothing, but his classmate might get kicked out of the country for the same?

The problem is that the initiative mixes serious crimes as murder with some offenses that might not even be crimes as in "abuses the social insurances in any way". Stirring up many things into one unclear soup and bash all "criminal foreigners" is in short what the initiative is about.
The SVP would not mind deporting Swiss drug addicts and criminals, too. But which country will take them?
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Old 10.12.2009, 13:24
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Re: Ausschaffungsinitiative

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The SVP would not mind deporting Swiss drug addicts and criminals, too. But which country will take them?
Theoretically, international asylum agreements basically mean that the first country they arrive in have to take them, Being expelled from your country by an irrational law probably counts as a good enough reason for asylum, does it not?
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Old 10.12.2009, 13:26
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Re: Ausschaffungsinitiative

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I don't think it will find a majority (but mind you, I said that of the minaret ban as well, so I may be wrong).

However, bear in mind that SVP doesn't always play to win outright. If an initiative such as this one got close to 40% of yes votes it would already count as a moral victory for the SVP as it would once again show that the SVP's message resonates with a considerably larger group of people than would vote SVP outright (SVP is probably at between 23 and 30 percent in the polls, so it would be almost double the lower estimate). The bigger picture is that SVP wants to show the political establishment that they are out of touch on questions of immigration and integration, and that not only SVP voters think this but so must a considerable number of voters of other parties.

Also, if the SVP can come up with another catchy poster such as the minaret one or the sheep one, then the foreign press and the UNO and such organisations can latch onto the anti-Swiss rant which is good for the SVP as one or two of them will definitely say something stupid (like the Senegalese president's remarks on the sheep poster anyone?) which of course make excellent quotes for SVP literature and underscore the SVP's core belief that such bodies are ignorant corrupt meddlers who are just jealous of Switzerland.
This initiative might gain a majority. Reasons:
  • High foreign population causes xenophobia. 22% exceeds any other country.
  • Rising unemployment and competition for jobs.
  • It is bad taste to discriminate against ethnic minorities. But nothing unethical in being anti-criminal.
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Old 10.12.2009, 13:28
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Re: Ausschaffungsinitiative

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Theoretically, international asylum agreements basically mean that the first country they arrive in have to take them, Being expelled from your country by an irrational law probably counts as a good enough reason for asylum, does it not?
Good! Let's trade them for the Gauntanomo prisoners.
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Old 10.12.2009, 17:03
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Re: Ausschaffungsinitiative

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It would affect everyone who does not have a Swiss passport and decides to commit one of the crimes listed on your link.

It once again touches some human rights issues: It lists "drug dealing" as one of the offenses that would automatically revoke a residence permit for at least five years. So if a Swiss kid is caught dealing a gram of grass on the schoolyard, it will get pretty much nothing, but his classmate might get kicked out of the country for the same?

The problem is that the initiative mixes serious crimes as murder with some offenses that might not even be crimes as in "abuses the social insurances in any way". Stirring up many things into one unclear soup and bash all "criminal foreigners" is in short what the initiative is about.
When this became known, I asked a very similar question with a similar comparison to Prof Dr Mörgeli, the intellectual chief agitator of the SVP (more aggressive than Messrs Schlüer and Heer but extremely intelligent) by E-mail. He replied within a day by a nice Email, clarifying that there of course would be a differentiation, visible in the small print of the initiative, and that he himself had worked very hard on such things (he is prof. of law). Beside this there will be a counter-proposal by the Bundesversammlung which will be more even with human rights and somewhat "milder". That counter-proposal still will be an "Ausschaffungs-Gegen-Vorschlag".
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Old 10.12.2009, 20:31
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Re: Ausschaffungsinitiative [Expulsion Initiative]

It's not often I agree with the SVP but going I see nothing wrong in expelling guests from the country who kill, sexually assualt or steal. About the drugs stuff you can discuss. It would be unfair to expell a 16 year old cause he had a bit of grass but if some one comes here with the intention to sell dangerous drugs to make a living why shouldn't he also be expelled?

What I haven't been able to find out is which international rights could it break? Obviously people granted asylum can't be sent home. Is that the only concern?

Oh and if this came to a vote it would probably gain even more procent than the anti minaret initiative


Edit: looked a bit more detailed on their site. Refugees will be sent back if possible. So I don't really see anything wrong with the initiative. So again what's the uproar about?
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Old 10.12.2009, 21:51
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Re: Ausschaffungsinitiative [Expulsion Initiative]

New article on this in Swissinfo: http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/index/Co...ml?cid=7872394
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Old 10.12.2009, 21:53
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Re: Ausschaffungsinitiative [Expulsion Initiative]

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It's not often I agree with the SVP but going I see nothing wrong in expelling guests from the country who kill, sexually assualt or steal. About the drugs stuff you can discuss. It would be unfair to expell a 16 year old cause he had a bit of grass but if some one comes here with the intention to sell dangerous drugs to make a living why shouldn't he also be expelled?

What I haven't been able to find out is which international rights could it break? Obviously people granted asylum can't be sent home. Is that the only concern?

Oh and if this came to a vote it would probably gain even more procent than the anti minaret initiative


Edit: looked a bit more detailed on their site. Refugees will be sent back if possible. So I don't really see anything wrong with the initiative. So again what's the uproar about?
One big problem is the scope. I don't think second generation immigrants shouldn't be allowed to call Switzerland home.
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Old 10.12.2009, 22:01
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Re: Ausschaffungsinitiative [Expulsion Initiative]

I tend to see details rather than the whole landscape: What do the SVP/UDC intend to do if the country they want to expulse people to refuse to welcome them on their ground?

One can only expulse if there is another country willing to take the refugees... and this can no Swiss law influence by any means.
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Old 10.12.2009, 22:33
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Re: Ausschaffungsinitiative [Expulsion Initiative]

This initiative has been in the works for a long time and got a lot of exposure before the general election in 2007. This forum gave it a lot of coverage too - over on this thread
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Old 10.12.2009, 22:37
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Re: Ausschaffungsinitiative [Expulsion Initiative]

The initiative will pass. Easily.

However, it will start a debate about second /third generation immigrants. I, too, think they should get an automatic Swiss Pass at 20 or 25. (as long as they've committed no crime before hand.) Nothing else makes sense.
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Old 10.12.2009, 23:00
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Re: Ausschaffungsinitiative [Expulsion Initiative]

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I tend to see details rather than the whole landscape: What do the SVP/UDC intend to do if the country they want to expulse people to refuse to welcome them on their ground?

One can only expulse if there is another country willing to take the refugees... and this can no Swiss law influence by any means.
Switzerland has a number of such agreements with quite many countries that could potentially be affected. I couldn't tell you the details though, but unless the Federal Councillors official proposal is sharp enough to be accepted by the majority I see no reason why it shouldn't pass, remember the Swiss have already voted on a tougher immigration law (3 years ago or so ?) but it hasn't been properly implemented by the judiciary.
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Old 11.12.2009, 08:04
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Re: Ausschaffungsinitiative [Expulsion Initiative]

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... He replied within a day by a nice Email, clarifying that there of course would be a differentiation, visible in the small print of the initiative,....
The problem with these initiatives is, it seems to me, that it is the headline that gets read, it's the headline on the posters. And it's that that increases xenophobia among the Swiss, and increases the sense of alienation of non-Swiss, making Switzerland appear an unfriendly place to even economically produtive, contributing aliens, such as myself.

And I'm not even a bleeding heart, tree hugging, wishy washy liberal.
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Old 11.12.2009, 09:20
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Re: Ausschaffungsinitiative [Expulsion Initiative]

Eh, if they clarify or remove some of the more grey area crimes (drug trafficking), and limit it to first-generation immigrants, I could see myself giving this proposal some serious thought.
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Old 11.12.2009, 10:41
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Re: Ausschaffungsinitiative [Expulsion Initiative]

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I tend to see details rather than the whole landscape: What do the SVP/UDC intend to do if the country they want to expulse people to refuse to welcome them on their ground?

One can only expulse if there is another country willing to take the refugees... and this can no Swiss law influence by any means.
That's not a major problem as most countries grant their own citizens the right to reside in their country. There may be exceptions but I can't think of any.

Furthermore, the Swiss authorities already cooperate with the authorities of many other countries in the transfer home of rejected refugees etc and this scope would probably just be extended.
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