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  #21  
Old 18.05.2007, 00:02
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Re: Democracy or gizmos - what counts?

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Well, they're perhaps not the best people to offer opinons on these matters. "What did you do during the war, Daddy?"
Maybe you would like to remember that Switzerland did NOT start any war.
Nor pushed entire societies to elect the most "populist" guy on the shore, to then even acclaiming their policies.
The "racial cleaning" processes, maybe your history teacher did NOT tell you this, or maybe as in many things regarding History you forgot, was actually "developed" among England and USA. Was called Eugenics. Based on Darwin's Theory of Evolution, with which i totally agree, many "doctors", supported by the Royal Academy Of Medicine and it's American equivalent, decidede that the "human race" had gone far enough in "allowing the unfitted to reproduce themsleves", therefore leaving a "genetic stanch" in the "pure Genetic human pool".
Thus, was in USA where the "doctors" started sterilising mental diseased, Quasimodos, homosexuals and all who they decided were "unfitted", "abnormal" and, of course to preserve and purify the "human race", they HAD to stop them from "spreading" those genetically transmissed diseases.And just in case, others atht nobody knew were genetically transmitted, but hey!! they had to have a hobby, right?
And if Chamberlain and his buddies would have done what they should have done, according to the treats already signed up, to stop the madman of Hitler when they had the power to, no War would have happened.
But you seem to forget that England entered the War when it saw itself personally threatened, not before. That half Europe just surrendered. That France even worked for the germans. And that USA entered the War because the infamous NEW Deal was crap. USA was economically bankrupted, and the only way out to put the industrial complex to produce something, was the War. That's why they let Pearl Harbor happened, EVEN when they had the information that was going to happen. To justify the entering the War. Don't forget that before Pearl Harbor, the Nazis were very well looked in USA.
What did Switzerland do?
Fortified their borders, prepare for the worst, but TRY to avoid it.
Not only Switzerland would have gained nothing entering the War, the rest of the world would have lost. Lives then and lives afterwards because once a War is over you need a NEUTRAL table to sit and TALK, unless you want Europe to go on in an endless War.
"Violence is the LAST resource of the incompetent"
Issac Asimov.
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  #22  
Old 18.05.2007, 08:58
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Re: Democracy or gizmos - what counts?

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<snip>
But you seem to forget that England entered the War when it saw itself personally threatened, not before. That half Europe just surrendered. That France even worked for the germans. And that USA entered the War because the infamous NEW Deal was crap. USA was economically bankrupted, and the only way out to put the industrial complex to produce something, was the War. That's why they let Pearl Harbor happened, EVEN when they had the information that was going to happen. To justify the entering the War. Don't forget that before Pearl Harbor, the Nazis were very well looked in USA.<snip>
This is totally incorrect.

Firstly 'England' didn't enter the war. It was Britain.
Secondly, Britain entered the war when Germany invaded Poland in September 1939. France fell in the spring of 1940, the Netherlands followed likewise in May 1940. So Britain was far from being 'personally threatened' in September 1939.

As to your distorted views on the USA - I'll leave an American to correct you.

You seem to want to defend Switzerland, when no-one is actually saying anything against her!
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  #23  
Old 18.05.2007, 12:51
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Re: Democracy or gizmos - what counts?

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This is totally incorrect.

Firstly 'England' didn't enter the war. It was Britain.
Secondly, Britain entered the war when Germany invaded Poland in September 1939. France fell in the spring of 1940, the Netherlands followed likewise in May 1940. So Britain was far from being 'personally threatened' in September 1939.

As to your distorted views on the USA - I'll leave an American to correct you.

You seem to want to defend Switzerland, when no-one is actually saying anything against her!
AbFab, i did send you this answer by pm because i did not want to make so evident you have no idea of what you are talking about in general terms, and not because i did not want to "bother" myself posting it here.
But, i will please the lady of the house here, you wanted in public, here you have.


Hello.
You are totally right about Britain and not England, my mistake. Sorry.
I am not giving you the answer here just because of the apology but because of the part where i disagree with your opinions, and i have the data to backup my ideas, so kind of saving you the bad moment.
Britain felt threatened by Germany. Before 1939 british intelligence had already information upon Hitler's mad plan of conquering the World. And a very complete one. Therefore, the invasion of Poland was only the physical confirmation of something they already knew was going to happen sooner or later. And if you believe you are right, then why did they let Hitler getaway with the Sudets? That action was completely illegal according to international law at that very moment.
I would like to remark upon the fact that you did nt comment on the "Eugenics" theory: maybe because you already know that was developed by Britain and USA? MAybe because the "ideal" of a "better and higher" human "race",being developed by them and then took by the nazis is a not so noble and good act in view of what followed?
When you say distorted views on the USA activity during the war, which part of my views are distorted according to you?
Because i can sustain my ideas with the documentation, can you do the same?
And please, don't take me wrong here. I am not saying Switzerland is perfect nor anything like it. It has faults, and some of them more or less important perhaps. But i do love History. And the facts were being severely distorted there, with the naive image of the saints USA and Britain, and the very bad swiss bankers staying at home asking themselves how to make profits of the War. USA knew of the concentration camps way before 1941, according to declassified files of the US government, they had sure knowledge of the "practices" of the nazis since later 1939. And they did nothing.
Switzerland was not a saint in the War period, that's true. Nobody's perfect. As i said, money was misscarried and even stolen. But also you have to take in count that it did not start the War, it did not let it happen, and it did not help the ascencion of Hitler nor Mussolini in any way.
And, what's more, if Switzerland had entered the War, not even one of the people who found refuge there would have survived, and the military changes that it's entering the War would have counted for would have been nearly zero. Switzerland was greatly protected by the Alps and it's own geography, but nothing else, military speaking. Very hard to take, if Hitler would have wanted to, and very hard to keep. But the swiss military was in no shape whatsoever to get out of the country and "free" Europe. Nor make any significative difference in the outcome. Countries with centuries of war participations and by the time' standards excellent and well trained armies were swept away by nazi Germany in days. And it was not in the interest of "defending" Switzerland that i said it, was in the interest of History being told right.
Nevertheless, about my very stupid mistake of "England" and "Britain", i am sorry.
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  #24  
Old 18.05.2007, 22:56
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Re: Democracy or gizmos - what counts?

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Swiss neutrality saved lives.
Swiss ones, and foreign ones.
Yes, money was missccarried and even stolen. But there were no concentration camps on Switzerland.
And when the War was over, as it was going to be over someday, and all Europe needed a place to sit down and talk, because even when they might hate each others guts, they would have to live together in the same small continent forever, they had a place to call upon and have a talk.
There are still in many swiss cities plaques placed by survivors of both WW, 1 and 2, who got to cross the borders and were fed, warmed and housed. With more or less "tenderness", with more or less "sweet smiles", but they did live to tell the tale and go back to their own countries and just live.
I was not denouncing, but defending Swiss neutrality. I am sorry that you understood my comments otherwise. Within two weeks I am going to either try to delete my account or I will just stop visiting this forum. I was too upset by people earlier this week to carry on with visiting. Either way -- I never said that there were concentration camps here (the boat was full!) or that Switzerland did not play an important role during or after the war for negotiations (it did). The reference to Sweden was, as far as I am concerned, meant to defend Swiss neutrality. English speakers think of "greedy" neutral Switzerland during the war, but leave Sweden out of it. But, because "the boat was full," more Jews had to die than was warranted. I understand, Americans refused to accept Jews. Regardless, the Swiss still deserve the same damnation that the American government has received in schools in the US for decades.

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The "racial cleaning" processes, maybe your history teacher did NOT tell you this, or maybe as in many things regarding History you forgot, was actually "developed" among England and USA. Was called Eugenics. Based on Darwin's Theory of Evolution, with which i totally agree, many "doctors", supported by the Royal Academy Of Medicine and it's American equivalent, decidede that the "human race" had gone far enough in "allowing the unfitted to reproduce themsleves", therefore leaving a "genetic stanch" in the "pure Genetic human pool".
True. All of the elite thought this back then.

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Thus, was in USA where the "doctors" started sterilising mental diseased, Quasimodos, homosexuals and all who they decided were "unfitted", "abnormal" and, of course to preserve and purify the "human race", they HAD to stop them from "spreading" those genetically transmissed diseases.And just in case, others atht nobody knew were genetically transmitted, but hey!! they had to have a hobby, right?
I am sorry, but this not true if you mean to imply that this was done on a wide scale and was governmental policy. Such actions are, and would have been considered, unconstitutional. Oddly enough, these policies were applied rather consistently in *Sweden* after the Second World War.

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And if Chamberlain and his buddies would have done what they should have done, according to the treats already signed up, to stop the madman of Hitler when they had the power to, no War would have happened.
Wow... *Deletes stupid comments*

You really need to go to the US. They still discuss this today. They ask: Do you want to repeat Munich? Do you want to be a Chamberlain? This was oddly enough one of the *main* arguments for the invasion of Iraq! *Sigh* Whatever... I really need to just go tend sheep somewhere, don't I?


Ok... I've finally read the rest of your crap -- it is just crap. Just believe whatever you want dude. That is life, oder? FDR had wanted to join in the war against Nazi Germany from the beginning -- it was the American public that resisted. The bombing of Pearl Harbor was necessary in order to bring the public behind a war. There were quite a few German-Americans that did not see a reason to interfere in European affairs, and quite a few Irish-Americans and Italian-Americans (we're talking about a majority now) that just didn't care. It had nothing to do with the development of the American economy or the failure of the New Deal. But, like I said, whatever. People just believe whatever they want. I don't care...
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  #25  
Old 18.05.2007, 23:57
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Re: Democracy or gizmos - what counts?

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I was not denouncing, but defending Swiss neutrality. I am sorry that you understood my comments otherwise. Within two weeks I am going to either try to delete my account or I will just stop visiting this forum. I was too upset by people earlier this week to carry on with visiting. Either way -- I never said that there were concentration camps here (the boat was full!) or that Switzerland did not play an important role during or after the war for negotiations (it did). The reference to Sweden was, as far as I am concerned, meant to defend Swiss neutrality. English speakers think of "greedy" neutral Switzerland during the war, but leave the Sweden out of it. But, because "the boat was full," more Jews had to die than was warranted. I understand, Americans refused to accept Jews. Regardless, the Swiss still deserve the same damnation that the American government has received in schools in the US for decades.
Ok, i will try to address your issues one by one, if i may please?
If you say you like Swiss democracy but because some issues and opinions bother you you are going to delete your account, then you did not get the point, sorry. Disense IS necessary. Having differences is the only way to be closer to the truth or, better said yet, to be less close to make a terrible mistake.
If you are going to talk about "damnation" here, well...thought this was not about religions.
Anyway, i don't believe the size of USA and it's extension is being compared to the land extension of Switzerland here?
True. All of the elite thought this back then.

I am sorry, but this not true if you mean to imply that this was done on a wide scale and was governmental policy. Such actions are, and would have been considered, unconstitutional. Oddly enough, these policies were applied rather consistently in *Sweden* after the Second World War.
I did not mean it was applied as in a nation wide campaign, like done on other places. I meant it was carried on in several Hospitals with the knowledge iof the doctors, and their aproval. It was not anticonstitutional at all, 'cos those sterilised weren't warned first and as "patients" had no rights wahtsoever but enduring the proceedinsg the "doctors" ordered and take their "medicines", without ever knowing the side effects.

Wow... *Deletes stupid comments*

You really need to go to the US. They still discuss this today. They ask: Do you want to repeat Munich? Do you want to be a Chamberlain? This was one of the *main* arguments for invasion of Iraq! *Sigh* Whatever... I really need to just go tend sheep somewhere, don't I?
I will leave Iraq aside, 'cos it is not this forum's place. And because Saddam was no threat to anybody at all outside it's own territory, but Hitler was. Saddam had no plans of conquering the world nor even the mediums to do it, Hitler did have both.
I am sorry if you are so full of anger and WAR that the only reaction to stop Hitler on time you can think of is an INVASION. The War did not start on '39. All the "facts" as they are told to you in History, are not so. They are "processes", with very vague and diluted startings and very vague and diluted endings.
In my opinion, and i might be wrong, the soil for Hitler was seed way before even '37. When people feel with their guts and not think with their brains, bad things happen. Germany had got out of the First WW bad, but the economical sanctions imposed upon it were terrible. I am not justifying the germans in the First (nor in the Second), i am saying there's a limit between fair punishment and humiliation. And Germany was humiliated and forced to pay immense amounts of money that, to be paid, had to be taken, by the government of that time policy, of their own people. Not those who have ordered the War, those who were working on the fields. And, alll out of nowhere comes this man. He says he fought against his military superiors 'cos they were stupid and did not repect the poor soldiers. He makes populist promises. He keeps them long enough as to gain its people trust. He tells them they are the best and starts to make the unemployement disappear. On top of that, all the other countries and nations CONGRATULATE Hitler, for how well he's doing so far. Why? With their economical boom, Germany was able to pay it's War Debt on schedule, so everyone was happy. He even organizes an Olimpic Games!! For the german people, and for anyother people totally blinded, he was a great leader. So he starts little by little, withdrawing the country of the disarming pact, the league of nations (1933, both of them!!!!), and in 1936 breaks all the before signed treaties to reoccupy the Rhineland. Then in 1938, he annexes Austria, by military occupation. And he takes the Sudets, with the written APROVAL of Britain, France and Italy (forget about Mussolini, he was with Hitler from the start, ok?).
Just til then, the Great Countries could have stopped Hitler by Diplomatic preasure. Without the need of an invasion.But nobody did it. Diplomacy is not only saiyng yes and signing whatever somebody places upon you to tranquilise the situation. As the leaders then did with Hitler. Just cutting off his supplies and undermining economically it's structure, Hitler wouldn't have gained the power needed to control Germany. Just being a little more softer on the punishment, he wouldn't have got into power in the first place. It took ANOTHER World War to learn that, as you know, after the Second the economical punishment was not aplied as in the first. In fact , credist to REBUILD were given, at very low rates. The guilty ones faced Justice, the more or less innocent ones faced hard work to pay for their acts and acts by inaction, but they were left with some dignity and mediums to get up and walk again, even helped to walk again.
But, instead of taking the diplomatic measures needed on the needed times, they let a situation get out of control, and then only blood could fix things straight, as it happened.
If you want to check all i said here, you are welcome to do so. Many french militars and british militars were warning about Hitler way before he got his post of chancellor, and a canadian general is quoted of having said this:Quote by Canadian General Andrew McNaughton, regarding the defeat of Germany: "We have them on the run. That means we will have to do it over again in another 25 years.", on November of 1918.


Ok... I've finally read the rest of your crap -- it is just crap. Just believe whatever you want dude. That is life, oder? FDR had wanted to join in the war against Nazi Germany from the beginning -- it was the American public that resisted. The bombing of Pearl Harbor was necessary in order to bring the public behind a war. There were quite a few German-Americans that did not see a reason to interfere in European affairs, and quite a few Irish-Americans and Italian-Americans (we're talking about a majority now) that just didn't care. It had nothing to do with the development of the American economy or the failure of the New Deal. But, like I said, whatever. People just believe whatever they want. I don't care...
I don't want to sound offensive here, but when you say it's crap without giving any solid proof of what you say, you only look not too smart.
The proofs i have about the "crap" as you called it, the total economical failure of the New Deal and the formal decision of forcing the entrance to War to start producing something, can be racked down in your own declassified files. If you ever get interested in what really happened, the USA declassified almost all that info many many years ago. Although maybe going on thinking the New Deal was great, when it was the greatest economical depression since the Big One, suits your morality better, it's up to you anyway.
So please, if anytime somebody will say something against your point of view, somebody who researched the facts, your answer will just be "you are talking crap", without saying WHY you think so, just at least let me know. To give your opinion on democracy, in most of the countries you have to be older than 18.
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  #26  
Old 19.05.2007, 16:53
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Re: Democracy or gizmos - what counts?

Marmoset has written down much relevant information and provided interesting links, thank you! The one I repeat is relevant enough to put it through an online translator for those interested in the subject.

Some other aspects that weren't mentioned so far can be found in this PDF (8 MB, many photos, German). The PDF also exactly states which goods were transported from/to Italy/Nazi Germany through Switzerland. Many goods and once Italian workers, but no prisioners.

During the France campaign May/June 1940, there were about 200 airspace violations, commited mostly by the German air force. The Swiss army only had planes that were technically inferior to the German Me-110 but the airforce engaged the intruders and shot down a total of about six German planes (I have no link at hand, read it in Weltwoche.ch last year) and one of the pilots was maybe (?) the only Swiss soldier that was killed in action during WW2.
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Old 19.05.2007, 17:18
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Re: Democracy or gizmos - what counts?

wow what fun reading it have been today,i am not from the U.S but am i the only one that is sick of the U.S being blamed for everything wrong in the world????'
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Old 24.06.2007, 19:56
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Re: Democracy or gizmos - what counts?

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"In Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder, bloodshed — they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock."
Harry Lime - The Third Man
The line was not in Graham Greene’s original script and was inserted by Orson Welles, who himself plays Harry Lime, the character making the remark. Welles did not invent this witticism, stealing it from Mussolini. And Mussolini was wrong on several counts. For one, the Swiss did not invent the cuckoo clock – that honour should go to the artisans of the Black Forest.
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