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  #161  
Old 03.01.2012, 19:15
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Re: Prostitutes should be at least 18 says the Cabinet

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Out of curiosity, who should make things safer for the those "poor clients" of the prostitues, and their partners, and with which money? Should the local funds of municipalities and thus the tax payers' money used to provide all this safeness? I for one really don't care what happens to them, it is their problem. I could rather feel pity for some of the prostitutes, those who don't have a choice due to pimps, maffia etc., but not for someone who is exploiting another human being.
I think you misunderstood Kittster's argument.

I understood that due to the heavy competition, prostitutes are increasingly cutting their prices and upping their services, for example by agreeing to increasingly dangerous practices. By raising the bar (for example raising the age at which they can start) you are reducing the number of prostitutes and so transforming a buyer's market to a seller's market. This would reduce dangerous practices, as given the choice, prostitutes wouldn't be offering them. It would also make it easier for them to walk away from ultra creepy customers, thus reducing violence etc.

I don't think it's right to wish that anybody catch HIV or something else nasty, no matter how much they deserve it or how irresponsible their actions. Also remember that's its not just the client who is exposed to STDs but also the prostitute him/herself.
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  #162  
Old 03.01.2012, 19:40
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Re: Prostitutes should be at least 18 says the Cabinet

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I think you misunderstood Kittster's argument.

I understood that due to the heavy competition, prostitutes are increasingly cutting their prices and upping their services, for example by agreeing to increasingly dangerous practices. By raising the bar (for example raising the age at which they can start) you are reducing the number of prostitutes and so transforming a buyer's market to a seller's market.
Except, it doesn't work that way.
Do you think the prostitutes act like: "D'uh, I'm illegal now. I think I'll look for a real job now, like washing dishes, cleaning toilettes or handing out flyers".

These people are basically outcasts, wherever they go. The fact that it's easier in Zurich to work as prostitute than to open a regular shop selling cheese and buttered pretzels just makes it easier for the authorities to keep track on the women and get them some very basic support.

It all comes down to simple economics:
It's a fact of life that there is a (sometimes significant) market for the product provided by these women. As such, the market will find a way to have this demand fulfilled - one way or another.

As has been said, criminalizing the victims in this case (underage prostitutes) does nothing to make this market disappear. It will just disappear from the streets (which I suspect is what most want, and which is actually reasonable once you hear how "fun" it is to live next to Sihlquai...).
Also, for the same reasons, it will be very difficult to dry up the demand completely by criminalizing demand.
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  #163  
Old 03.01.2012, 19:41
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Re: Prostitutes should be at least 18 says the Cabinet

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I don't think it's right to wish that anybody catch HIV or something else nasty, no matter how much they deserve it or how irresponsible their actions. Also remember that's its not just the client who is exposed to STDs but also the prostitute him/herself.
And by extension the client's unknowing partner.

I think prostitution should be more strongly regulated, with the women paying taxes, which in turn would free funds for a better support structure. Prostitution is, IMO, a fact of life. At least create an environment that reduces the harm to all those involved in it.
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  #164  
Old 03.01.2012, 19:51
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Re: Prostitutes should be at least 18 says the Cabinet

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Do you think the prostitutes act like: "D'uh, I'm illegal now. I think I'll look for a real job now, like washing dishes, cleaning toilettes or handing out flyers".
Actually I do.

Some will do what they want, no matter what. But others will think, "is this risk worth it?" Especially if they are just in it for a couple of hours a week to up pay for tuition fees or whatever. Right now it is just too easy to get started and that is the problem. Of course it won't go away completely but if you can save just some, it is already worth it. Also, the clients will think "do I want to go to an illegal one and risk getting busted, or go to a legal one without having to worry". Also, if there is a legal industry, they will be more likely to denounce their illegal competition. It's a case of divide and conquer.
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  #165  
Old 04.01.2012, 01:29
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Re: Prostitutes should be at least 18 says the Cabinet

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I think you misunderstood Kittster's argument.

I understood that due to the heavy competition, prostitutes are increasingly cutting their prices and upping their services, for example by agreeing to increasingly dangerous practices. By raising the bar (for example raising the age at which they can start) you are reducing the number of prostitutes and so transforming a buyer's market to a seller's market. This would reduce dangerous practices, as given the choice, prostitutes wouldn't be offering them. It would also make it easier for them to walk away from ultra creepy customers, thus reducing violence etc.

I don't think it's right to wish that anybody catch HIV or something else nasty, no matter how much they deserve it or how irresponsible their actions. Also remember that's its not just the client who is exposed to STDs but also the prostitute him/herself.
Believe me I don't wish anyone to catch something nasty, no way, all I wish is that people take up responsability for their lives and actions, especially when they have a choice. But I don't feel responsable for them and I wouldn't agree my taxes to be spent on them if given a chance to have my say in this matter. That's all.

On the other hand the social costs will be eventually even higher if this problem gets out of control. It's true. And sad.

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  #166  
Old 04.01.2012, 09:12
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Re: Prostitutes should be at least 18 says the Cabinet

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I wouldn't agree my taxes to be spent on them if given a chance to have my say in this matter.
Tough.

There's plenty of things I don't like having my taxes spent on, but that's life.

Though personally I'd love it if I could pick and choose what to spend my taxes on!

Tom
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  #167  
Old 04.01.2012, 09:49
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Re: Prostitutes should be at least 18 says the Cabinet

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Isn't that entrapment?

Surely if an activity is illegal it should also be illegal to encourage people to be accomplices to it?

Imagine if breweries started a campaign targetting 12-year old drinkers. I guess according to Swedish law that is okay because it would still be illegal for 12-years olds to buy alcohol?

It should either be illegal or it shouldn't. Anything else suggests that somebody is sidestepping a tough decison.
Entrapment? if you want to buy sex and you know it's illegal, suit yourself...poor guys ...."but, but, I was so horny...."

sorry I dont think your drinking analogy fits...there are no "campaigns" or "commercials" for prostitution in Sweden. Maybe a proper analogy would be, it's legal to sell drugs but illegal to use or to possess.

There would not be a market if there was no demand, so if there was no sex buyers, there would not be any prostitutes, so by making it illegal to buy sex it would theoretical reduce the number of prostitutes.

in the end it comes to down to:
"...it is unreasonable to also criminalize the one who, at least in most cases, is the weaker party who is exploited by others who want to satisfy their own sexual desires".

Personally I don't think you can fight prostitution, as long as there are men who think that everything can be bought with money.

I guess there are women who "by free will" want to sell their bodies to men, but the very negative side of prostitution is the exploration of young women, I think there is too little done regarding human trafficking (wonder why? ), which by the way is a real crime..

Funny part is here in Switzerland, since it is legal to be a prostitute, foreign women can not officially get a job as one, i.e. it won't say prostitute in their papers, but e.g. "dancer"...because Cabarets are just for dancing ...please

Would anybody here on EF admit that they go to prostitutes?
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  #168  
Old 04.01.2012, 09:53
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Re: Prostitutes should be at least 18 says the Cabinet

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Tough.

There's plenty of things I don't like having my taxes spent on, but that's life.

Though personally I'd love it if I could pick and choose what to spend my taxes on!

Tom
better yet, why pay takes at all It works for Monaco
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Old 04.01.2012, 09:53
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Re: Prostitutes should be at least 18 says the Cabinet

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Would anybody here on EF admit that they go to prostitutes?
I would, if I did, but I don't!

Tom
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  #170  
Old 04.01.2012, 10:08
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Re: Prostitutes should be at least 18 says the Cabinet

I strongly suggest we organise an event and go down to the local Porky's brothel where we can have a discussion with the "ladies". I've always wanted to enter the place but haven't dared to alone.

The ladies, by the way, are just renting rooms at the place and are not working for the owner. At least this is what the owner was able to prove during the last raid. Loop holes can be found everywhere.
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  #171  
Old 04.01.2012, 10:43
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Re: Prostitutes should be at least 18 says the Cabinet

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Entrapment? if you want to buy sex and you know it's illegal, suit yourself...poor guys ...."but, but, I was so horny...."

sorry I dont think your drinking analogy fits...there are no "campaigns" or "commercials" for prostitution in Sweden. Maybe a proper analogy would be, it's legal to sell drugs but illegal to use or to possess.
maybe I'm misunderstanding the Swedish system. But are you saying that in Sweden you don't get ads in the paper and stickers in phone booths and all the rest of it. That's advertising, right? So the advertising agency is allowed to take their money but can wash their hands in innocence if somebody is actually influenced by the advert.

Likewise, if I understand the Swedish model correctly, in Sweden you can run a brothel. You can hire a location, pay taxes, hire a security guard, a consultant, an interior decorator, a cleaning lady and put a big neon sign up outside, distribute flyers and run an ad campaign in the paper. The bank will lend you the money and the council will grant you the permit to run the business and inspect the fire extiniguishers, all of it legal. And the manager can claim, "oh, I wasn't expecting any clients to turn up, I just spent all this money because I was having a happy spending spree". Of course it's still the client who turns up who is at fault. But it's a bit simplistic to assume it stops there. The manager will want his clients to come back so he will do what he can to stop the police busting them. The security guard will be on the lookout for policemen and will warn clients of their presence. Illegal money may change hands so the manager is aware of police actions before they happen. And when the police do turn up, there's nothing they can do because it's all legal. No clients see. So a legal establishment will twist towards illegality. Okay, maybe in Sweden it won't be like that because the country is so clean that you can't pay the police for that type of information. But if you try and copy the model in other countries, you can be taking bets that that's how it will end.
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  #172  
Old 05.01.2012, 01:37
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Re: Prostitutes should be at least 18 says the Cabinet

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maybe I'm misunderstanding the Swedish system. But are you saying that in Sweden you don't get ads in the paper and stickers in phone booths and all the rest of it. That's advertising, right? So the advertising agency is allowed to take their money but can wash their hands in innocence if somebody is actually influenced by the advert.

Likewise, if I understand the Swedish model correctly, in Sweden you can run a brothel. You can hire a location, pay taxes, hire a security guard, a consultant, an interior decorator, a cleaning lady and put a big neon sign up outside, distribute flyers and run an ad campaign in the paper. The bank will lend you the money and the council will grant you the permit to run the business and inspect the fire extiniguishers, all of it legal. And the manager can claim, "oh, I wasn't expecting any clients to turn up, I just spent all this money because I was having a happy spending spree". Of course it's still the client who turns up who is at fault. But it's a bit simplistic to assume it stops there. The manager will want his clients to come back so he will do what he can to stop the police busting them. The security guard will be on the lookout for policemen and will warn clients of their presence. Illegal money may change hands so the manager is aware of police actions before they happen. And when the police do turn up, there's nothing they can do because it's all legal. No clients see. So a legal establishment will twist towards illegality. Okay, maybe in Sweden it won't be like that because the country is so clean that you can't pay the police for that type of information. But if you try and copy the model in other countries, you can be taking bets that that's how it will end.
No brothels are allowed in Sweden i.e. the wall of text for nothing ,
and you wont find any billboards like at the airport here in Switzerland...

once again, I'm not saying that this is best practice, probably good practice in theory though...anyway, whatever system you have, there will sadly always be trafficking/exploration of you women...

I found this interesting though:
http://prostitution.procon.org/view....ourceID=004119

It seems that men in the UK are very satisfied at home

and what was interesting was that: (quote from the page)
According to a research report in 2008 from the Nordic Gender Institute, the number of sex buyers in Sweden has declined since the introduction of the sex purchase law... the number of male sex buyers had decreased from 13.6 percent to 7.9 percent."

Personally I rather see that it's illegal, I see very little benefits (if any) vs the negative impacts of the whole business...
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  #173  
Old 05.01.2012, 01:46
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Re: Prostitutes should be at least 18 says the Cabinet

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No brothels are allowed in Sweden i.e. the wall of text for nothing ,
and you wont find any billboards like at the airport here in Switzerland...
If that is the case then there is some additional information that is missing.

Because if it is legal to sell sex, then on what basis is the government banning brothels?

(because after all, what else by definition is a brothel than a place where this supposedly legal activity should take place)

And if the activity is legal, on what basis can you ban those who pursue the trade from advertising it.

Or if indeed the prostitutes are allowed to offer their services but cannot legally have a place to do so and cannot legally advertise, then how can anybody claim they can still realistically do so without fearing punishment.

There must be some further aspect to this that got lost somewhere along the line.

And it could just be that that detail is quite important, i.e., it changes the whole situation.
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  #174  
Old 05.01.2012, 02:14
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Re: Prostitutes should be at least 18 says the Cabinet

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There must be some further aspect to this that got lost somewhere along the line.
It's hard to believe, but the Swedish law is really like that : Prostitution = the buyer gets the blame. End of story. It's a purely political view on the matter, legally speaking, it's a contradiction in terms as you have noticed but as long as the police knows clearly whom to arrest, it is practicable and doable in real life.

Short version of the situation:
It only makes sense if one agrees on the political statement that women in prostitution can only be victims. Overview:
- women in prostitution are victims
- if there is a victim, there is a crime
- if there is a crime, there is a perpetrator
- the perpetrator can't be the victims
- hence the perpetrator can only be the only other person involved: the client.


Swedish law considers female prostitutes as victims by definition. There is no need to make laws about victims, only about criminals. Therefore, as such, selling sex is legal because only buying sex isn't, but that's just a non-issue to the Swedish politicians as they do not consider it possible to sell sex without being a victim, thus selling sex is never ever an action of free will demanding legal status.
Swedish law wants to get at the men. Either as clients or as pimps. Men are by definition criminals when in front of a woman prostitute, because the female prostitute is by definition a victim. One can only be either victim or perpetrator, there is nothing in-between.
Brothels were forbidden before the Sexköplagen (new law criminalizing clients) so there is nothing changed there after it.
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  #175  
Old 05.01.2012, 02:40
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Re: Prostitutes should be at least 18 says the Cabinet

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It's hard to believe, but the Swedish law is really like that : Prostitution = the buyer gets the blame. End of story.
Well, hopefully it works for them, longtime.
It certainly doesn't work that way for conventional drugs.

Part of me thinks that they are maybe just "exporting" the problem.
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Old 05.01.2012, 12:20
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Re: Prostitutes should be at least 18 says the Cabinet

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Part of me thinks that they are maybe just "exporting" the problem.
Either that, or looking more closely at the statistic OSueco cited above

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the number of male sex buyers had decreased from 13.6 percent to 7.9 percent."


Which might as well mean, the illegality of the situation means that fewer men are admitting to going. I mean, how do they know the person conducting the interview isn't an under-cover cop?

It will be interesting to see how this develops in the longer term.
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Old 05.01.2012, 12:28
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Re: Prostitutes should be at least 18 says the Cabinet

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Either that, or looking more closely at the statistic OSueco cited above
For a start, I let the Swedes do what ever they like. But:
How do you go from 13,6% down to 7,9% ?
Either the decrease is real.
Or the 13,6% were answering a question about a legal action at the time and the 7,9% were answering a question about an illegal action at the time. In which case do you think more people will lie?
The measurement is always a problem. Statistics are statistics and nothing else than statistics. I am afraid I will never believe statistics about anything sexual anyway. Sorry.

Even if there is a real decrease of male clients. What does that have to do with the claimed goal of saving the women ? Less clients does not necessary mean less shops on the market for any trade. It just means less profit. What if you have more or less exactly as many female prostitutes as before, but just poorer as before ? How can you measure that ? How can you be sure that this is not the case and that the optimistic interpretation made above is the right one ?
Well... you can't. But you can hope. And in politics, hope is far more important than facts. Which means that everybody is happy with those numbers in Sweden.
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  #178  
Old 06.01.2012, 01:01
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Re: Prostitutes should be at least 18 says the Cabinet

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and what was interesting was that: (quote from the page)
According to a research report in 2008 from the Nordic Gender Institute, the number of sex buyers in Sweden has declined since the introduction of the sex purchase law... the number of male sex buyers had decreased from 13.6 percent to 7.9 percent."
You have noticed that "the number of make sex buyers" is defined as people who at least once in their life have bought sex. If the ban has reduced that figure from 13.6 to 7.9 percent in 3 years, that would suggest that the ban has either caused mass amnesia or that people are lying.
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Old 06.01.2012, 01:51
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Re: Prostitutes should be at least 18 says the Cabinet

I disagree with the idea of prostitute = victim. Also, isn't a girl in her twenties shacking up with a rich old man for his money prostitution too?
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Old 06.01.2012, 02:05
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Re: Prostitutes should be at least 18 says the Cabinet

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Also, isn't a girl in her twenties shacking up with a rich old man for his money prostitution too?
The argument would be then that she is not the victim of her own partner choice, regardless of her motivations for the relationship. The difference, in Swedish logic (it's just taken from radical feminism, it's easy to look up) is that there is no relationship, no partnership of any kind in prostitution. Thus for a prostitute, the sexual contact must be forced onto the women because she can only choose if it is a relationship. No relationship means no agreement to have sex by definition. It comes for radical feminism, no subtleties needed here. One size fits all. But it's logic within the given premisses.

Of course, it deprived human beings of sexuality outside partnerships, as if sexuality was only a social identity and not a individual identity, as if sex was a socio-psychological phenomenon and not the essence itself of human identity. Philosophical debate here.... it's part of the bigger debate gender theory vs. biologists. This forum is probably not the right place to continue this debate, though.
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