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  #21  
Old 03.06.2010, 16:49
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Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

Yeah i'll sit down with you HU DC 1/2.

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No and no (erm and no). If you play a turbo tournament like that then luck becomes a bigger factor as good players have less chance to use their skill. Take it to it's extreme. If you all get dealt 1 card and everyone is All-In on that hand there is no skill involved. Depending on the structure playing "carefully" can be the worst of all possible tactics.

If you wear sunglasses and a hat whilst sitting down with less than CHF2k you are just more likely to get laughed at than win. If other players were good enough to get a tell from your eyes then they will be playing at higher stakes..Hat and sunnies, (unless you are purposefully taking the p1ss and being funny which is good), just shows a lack of understanding of the game dynamics.....

I consistantly beat No limit Hold 'Em casino games which are typically at a €2/€4 or €5/€10 blind level. A lot of guys from my old poker round in München were full time professionals (JanH appeared on Stefan Raab as a guest profi, JoramV & on German High Rollers, GeorgD on the German High Stakes show). These guys are used to sitting down with upwards of 30k at a time. They are more skilled than me and very hard to beat. Fact is, the cards are a small but essential part of the game. Much more important is correct strategy for the game of choice with the given format, with respect to given stack sizes and odds be they pot, implied, or reverse-implied.
You cannot stop getting dealt KK and the other guy gets AA and you lose a stack. That is the luck element. Neither can you prevent being dealt AA shipping a stack, watching a guy make an awful call with 33 and watch him river a straight. What you can do (which is absolutely nothing to do with luck) is use exploitive play to play the most appropriate (profitable) way vs a given opponent with a given stack size,...etc. So much of the game is about pot manipulation (in a legal way, through making appropriately sized bets) combined with an understanding of playing vs peoples "ranges". This is what we refer to as putting someone on a hand. (Never try and put someone on one EXACT HAND.) You should attempt to define the range of hands other players play in given circumstances and narrow that range and base decisions on the weighted average of outcomes vs that range (this is your equity).

Example I sit with CHF1000 with blinds of CHF1 / CHF2 and another guy (unrealistically) raises ALL IN so I have to call CHF1000 to continue. if I absolutley "know" this guy will only ever do that with AA or KK then if I lookl down and see QQ it is an easy fold as I am way behind vs the entire range of hands he can play like this. However if I "know" this guy will do that with all of the possible 169 possible non-equivalent starting hands then I am well ahead vs 164 of them, roughly fifty-fifty vs 2 of them (AK off and AK suited) and a huge underdog vs 2 of them (AA & KK) so it's snap-call-fist-pump-time. The "knowing" is the bit where we rely on betting patterns, tells, and shock-unpolitically correct-horror (lacking better information) stereotyping based on age, sex, race, attire and attitude. There is a poker book called "Let there be range" that was being sold for $1,850 (yes it is great and no it is not worth that much) it states when playing online check where someone is from and then

If it's somewhere in Scandinavia or Russia, always click call if it's a close decision between folding and calling.


All these tools and many, many others help you make the correct decisions time and time again. The better you do this, the better player you can be.


Everyone will get dealt the same cards (by which I mean a fair and random distribution of hands from the 1326 possible combinations available), everyone will see the same flop, turn, and river. What you do from then depends on how well you play. The best in the world can 3-bet bluff with air (lousy cards) one hand and routinely fold QQ the next IF it is the best poker decision.

Poker is absolutely a game of skill, which by setting certain conditions you can change to make a game of luck and skill. Do this by increasing the blinds relative to the stacks as in a tournement. It's like making Brazil play an amateur team at footy (soccer) where everyone is blindfolded. Of course Brazil are still the better team, but you have certainly improved the amateurs chances. I saw the irony in the law as it was that good players recognise cash games (you play for real money-when you bet CHF100 it is really CHF100-and you get up and leave when you want) involve less luck (variance) that tournaments, but tournaments were permitted outside casinos and cash games were not.

All this talk of poker whet's the appetite. Anyone want to sit down and we can all try and get lucky sometime soon?

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  #22  
Old 03.06.2010, 16:50
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Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

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So what do the poker players on here say, is it a game of skills or chance?
It always seemed to me that it takes quite a bit of skills and of course a bit of luck too no?!
like most games of chance, luck if you play by the rules, skill if you cheat, or a well honed ability for quick reckoning, the house always wins... in the end, or as my mate from Reno put it ''those lights weren't built on winners''
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  #23  
Old 03.06.2010, 17:09
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Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

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Yeah i'll sit down with you HU DC 1/2.
Hey,

You're on the list of people I know have a general interest to play and I am up for HU at friendly stakes like that or similar. I like a mix of games for HU sessions, rather than a 4-hour NLH marathon. Playing something like 10 card O on two flops is always amusing (easy to learn).

I'm still even more interested to organise 6-10 people to play once a week at the same sort of stakes or slightly higher and have a HU side table for added amusment value.
I am fine to host that, but live 30mins away in Pfäffikon (SZ) so people would have to travel down.
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  #24  
Old 03.06.2010, 17:15
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Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

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I'm still even more interested to organise 6-10 people to play once a week at the same
Are private domestic tourneys excluded from the ban ?
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  #25  
Old 03.06.2010, 17:16
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Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

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Are private domestic tourneys excluded from the ban ?
consenting adults in their own homes can do what they want..
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  #26  
Old 03.06.2010, 17:18
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Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

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Are private domestic tourneys excluded from the ban ?
Yes. I think I read that somewhere today, that tournaments can still be held within one's own home with friends and family. And why shouldn't that be so I wonder.
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  #27  
Old 03.06.2010, 17:20
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Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

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Are private domestic tourneys excluded from the ban ?
No, but apparently locking wayward forum members in your basement for extended periods is illegal too

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Hey,

You're on the list of people I know have a general interest to play and I am up for HU at friendly stakes like that or similar. I like a mix of games for HU sessions, rather than a 4-hour NLH marathon. Playing something like 10 card O on two flops is always amusing (easy to learn).

I'm still even more interested to organise 6-10 people to play once a week at the same sort of stakes or slightly higher and have a HU side table for added amusment value.
I am fine to host that, but live 30mins away in Pfäffikon (SZ) so people would have to travel down.
Well I'm up for whatever, I'm quite partial to 6 card HL or superstud when the button arrives and I believe I can get the IR from Zurich pretty quickly.
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Old 03.06.2010, 17:22
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Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

anyone wants to play against me, i'm happy to take your money
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  #29  
Old 03.06.2010, 17:24
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Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

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anyone wants to play against me, i'm happy to take your money
Fine. Monday Night. I take Amex.
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  #30  
Old 03.06.2010, 17:28
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Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

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Well I'm up for whatever, I'm quite partial to 6 card HL or superstud when the button arrives and I believe I can get the S7 from Zurich.

OK. Sounds fun, and I'm always always up for learning new games. Can you host in town, or would you travel to Pfaeffikon (SZ)? Alternatively let the sun shine and I'm happy to bring up chips and cards for Saturday afternoon or afterwork HU donk-a-thons somewhere at the lakeside...
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Old 03.06.2010, 17:30
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Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

Interesting replies I have to say... You can definitely tell the beginners from the slightly more experienced poker players... I guess this is in fact what makes poker players different from others new to the game.

Poker is neither a game of skill nor is it a game of luck, it's a varying combination of both.

Poker depends on various factors among many are as follows:
  • Game Type: Tournament / Cash | No Limit/Pot Limit/ Limit
  • Number of Players: short handed / full game / heads up game
  • Game strcuture: Fxied Blinds (cash) / Increasing blinds / Rake
  • Players understanding of the game and ability to make certain assumptions about other players sitting around
  • Type of players sitting around: from a loose fish, rock, shark, a timid mouse, an excited new player to the tight solid player.
  • Game psychology and psychological factors (if you're pissed off, relaxed you're game changes a good player is disciplened, knows those moments and changes strategy)
  • Every type of game requires a strategy, if you don't have a strategy you should not play.
Anyway for the majority of the losers in poker, it's just a fun game... which is good for the pros cos they need to feed on that fish!

Economisto and Shove I'm up for having a good game, will be interested in 10-20 deep stack 20min blind private tourneys.


Cheers

:-)
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  #32  
Old 03.06.2010, 17:35
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Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

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anyone wants to play against me, i'm happy to take your money
Monday would work for me too next week. Game on?

Suggest NLH cash game CHF 1 / 2 with MIN CHF100 buy-in for a start, but will play lower or higher stakes so long as they are not trivially low or nosebleed high.

If you are seriously offering to host a game then please reserve me a seat!! Alternatively I will host as I said in previous posts, but then if it's a school night we need a fairly early start so people can make it back into town..

Last edited by Shove; 03.06.2010 at 17:36. Reason: next not this
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  #33  
Old 03.06.2010, 17:37
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Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

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Monday would work for me too next week. Game on?

Suggest NLH cash game CHF 1 / 2 with MIN CHF100 buy-in for a start, but will play lower or higher stakes so long as they are not trivially low or nosebleed high.

If you are seriously offering to host a game then please reserve me a seat!! Alternatively I will host as I said in previous posts, but then if it's a school night we need a fairly early start so people can make it back into town..
I can't host but I'll travel anywhere that's direct from HB (Pfaffikon is fine).
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  #34  
Old 03.06.2010, 17:46
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Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

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Interesting replies I have to say... You can definitely tell the beginners from the slightly more experienced poker players... I guess this is in fact what makes poker players different from others new to the game.

Poker is neither a game of skill nor is it a game of luck, it's a varying combination of both.


Poker depends on various factors among many are as follows:
  • Game Type: Tournament / Cash | No Limit/Pot Limit/ Limit
  • Number of Players: short handed / full game / heads up game
  • Game strcuture: Fxied Blinds (cash) / Increasing blinds / Rake
  • Players understanding of the game and ability to make certain assumptions about other players sitting around
  • Type of players sitting around: from a loose fish, rock, shark, a timid mouse, an excited new player to the tight solid player.
  • Game psychology and psychological factors (if you're pissed off, relaxed you're game changes a good player is disciplened, knows those moments and changes strategy)
  • Every type of game requires a strategy, if you don't have a strategy you should not play.
Anyway for the majority of the losers in poker, it's just a fun game... which is good for the pros cos they need to feed on that fish!

Economisto and Shove I'm up for having a good game, will be interested in 10-20 deep stack 20min blind private tourneys.


Cheers

:-)

It's a good summary. You need to try cash games. It is by far the best format for a home game. What do you mean "10-20 deep stack" though? I'd say a deepstacker is =>200BB with a blind structure that allows for some play.

The rake is actually a good point and a personal weakness of mine. I always "assume" the casino rake is beatable and it always has never been an issue, but in Vegas as soon as the table went down to 3-4 players the most experienced guys called the floor to agree to suspend the rake as you are basically just keeping the game going until new money arrives and knocking chunks out of each other and paying 5% for the privelage, whilst offering a certain amount of fun-value, is not a good proposition.. European casinos rake is more punitive, but the players are soooooo much worse than Vegas than it more than makes up for that..
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  #35  
Old 03.06.2010, 17:50
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Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

The majority of professional poker players could not afford to be so without sponsorship. The majority of the top one percent of poker players could not break even (the rake gets them / they have bad runs) and so they survive through bankrolls from e.g. online gaming sites who can afford to pay them big bucks thanks to all the suckers they lure in and the rake they take.

I also think all the cheesy ads showing guys looking cool playing poker on the TV should be substituted with a few showing them down and out without money, friends and most importantly family after they think they know better, get hooked, and lose it all.

Friendly home games are another thing entirely.
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Old 03.06.2010, 17:54
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Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

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It's a good summary. You need to try cash games. It is by far the best format for a home game. What do you mean "10-20 deep stack" though? I'd say a deepstacker is =>200BB with a blind structure that allows for some play.

The rake is actually a good point and a personal weakness of mine. I always "assume" the casino rake is beatable and it always has never been an issue, but in Vegas as soon as the table went down to 3-4 players the most experienced guys called the floor to agree to suspend the rake as you are basically just keeping the game going until new money arrives and knocking chunks out of each other and paying 5% for the privelage, whilst offering a certain amount of fun-value, is not a good proposition.. European casinos rake is more punitive, but the players are soooooo much worse than Vegas than it more than makes up for that..

I play cash games also but only dealer dealt games, and I hate playing when I have to tell the players to put the blinds in lol

I meant to say 10-20 min blinds rather than anything to do with the stack itself. I find anything less in home games is just silly.

I can't do Monday nights by the way.
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  #37  
Old 03.06.2010, 18:10
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Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

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The majority of the top one percent of poker players could not break even.......

Hi,
Your sentiment is correct, but this statement is not. The top 1% will all make a living. The professionals I know in Germany are probably not in the top 1%, but they play €5 /€10 at the Bayerische Spielbanken a few times a week and they earn a "decent" salary.
There is a difference between braking even, making a living, and getting rich from the game. I know (as far as one ever can) I could maker a living from the game. That is to say I am profitable at stakes high enough to feed and cloth me and could afford to run bad for a long time and not go broke. I play better than friends I know who do earn a living this way, but I don't think I could earn as much as I do in business as in poker though and I very much enjoy what I do. I know a load of good players to whom the same applies. Bankers, Doctors, lawyers, Actuaries, hot Programmers who beat the game, but make good money professionally. Actually, most of them probably have too much respect for money to ever be truely great, which is a flaw I probably share.
It is not binary in that either you make millions or you lose your house. Threre are lots of levels inbetween. When I sit at a casino table I usually think there are one or 2 other players who make money. Sometimes there are even more good players, but so many people have a leak that stops them making money over the course. My guess would be 15-20% of casino players make money, and 5% can make a living in European casinos. Less than that can make more playing poker than using their obvious numerical and personal skills in a different profession, but under all circumstances more than 1% of players make a living from the game...As far as online is concerned there must be stats out there to answer this..
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  #38  
Old 03.06.2010, 18:41
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Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

Any thoughts on the effects of aging on your playing? Should I become a poker-retiree sooner rather than later?

Any other useful book references? (I have the Dummies version)
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Old 03.06.2010, 19:12
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Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

the gvt cracked down on it because it's still gambling, regardless of whether skill plays a factor. they have a valid interest in regulating gambling because of the negative things that often go hand in hand with it.
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Old 03.06.2010, 19:16
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Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

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Any thoughts on the effects of aging on your playing? Should I become a poker-retiree sooner rather than later?

Any other useful book references? (I have the Dummies version)
I have thought abotu this recently. I think we need to distinguish "aging" from the baggage (please forgive the expression and substitute responsibilites if you prefer) and experience that comes along with it.

Aging itself is bad for the memory. Playing poker certainly helps this is my opinion, but probably stud (a game where remembering what cards are no longer in play has value) becomes harder to play.

As you get older I think you are less likely to make the " I shall prove I have the biggest cock by bluffing you out of this pot" type of decisions. Those plays are expensive so not making them has to be good for your game..

Things that often come along with age, but are IMHO independendent of age are

family and kids: Can go either way but in general bad for your game if you choose to play higher stakes. Losing a big pot after making the right call or play and getting unlucky is bad, but you learn to deal with it. Losing a big pot after making a bad call or dumb move is bad and you try and learn from it and move on. Losing a big pot through a dumb play and hence having less money to feed little jimmy is going to make you feel like a bad partner and parent. Hence you will not be able to play at higher levels as easily and if you don't gain experience at higher stakes you can't improve your game to that level..

Experience: Extremely good for your game. If I get bet into when I hold the nut flush draw with 2 overs or a gutshot or some other type of combo draw and I have a single player behind depending on the stack to pot ratios I know exactly what I am gonna do as I have done it probably hundreds (or even thousands) of times before. The first time you see someone min bet into a 50+ BB pot it is as confusing as hell. Now I know how I will react depending on my opponent and position and often even half expect that bet from some players under some circumstances.
Experience is not dependent on age, but rather both hands played. I have no doubts some teenagers have already played more hands (at least online) than I will play in my entire life.

Two great theory books are

No-Limit Hold Em- theory and practice by Sklansky
and
Professional No-Limit Hold Em by Matt Flynn; Sunny Mehta; Ed Miller

another great book (this has paid for itself so many times for me) is

Mike Caro's book of poker tells.


but basically devour all books you can. I have >40 books in my poker library covering everything from tells, and game selection to game theory / metagame. The game is always changing. 25 years ago if you owned Super System by Brunson you were a god, but 25 years ago nobody would 4 bet bluff you or float on the turn if the opponent had already bet preflop and flop. The game changes and so does the most appropriate way of playing it.

I always think the kids are getting better and I am getting worse and worry that now I play less regularly I have lost some edge, but when ever I get chance to play again I get back up to speed.

How much you play, and how much you *think* about the game are always the biggest factors in how good you can be, rather than anything like how old you are......but how good you can be is not the biggest factor in how much money you can make. There game selection becomes a lot more important...
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