Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Swiss politics/news  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 03.06.2010, 20:22
Shove's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 167
Groaned at 8 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 87 Times in 51 Posts
Shove has no particular reputation at present
Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
the gvt cracked down on it because it's still gambling, regardless of whether skill plays a factor. they have a valid interest in regulating gambling because of the negative things that often go hand in hand with it.

...but then would it not be consistent to ban all gambling? Should roulette where no skill is involved is easier to play and I can lose my money quickly not be banned totally?
I'm thinking the whole policy just isn't consistent enough to be claiming some sort of moral high ground..."We shall protect the poor innoccents from losing there money!!!...erm unless they want to lose it in our shop and pay us for the privilege. Certainly that is how I see it else where like in Bayern where the State holds a monopoly..
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Shove for this useful post:
  #42  
Old 03.06.2010, 20:28
the_clangers's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: St. Louis, MO was St Prex, VD
Posts: 1,999
Groaned at 17 Times in 14 Posts
Thanked 1,185 Times in 697 Posts
the_clangers has a reputation beyond reputethe_clangers has a reputation beyond reputethe_clangers has a reputation beyond reputethe_clangers has a reputation beyond reputethe_clangers has a reputation beyond repute
Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
Sorry, no they can't. It is in fact, contradictory. Skill and Chance, especially as gaming concepts, are contraindicative. One cannot be skilled at roulette. My personal experience is based on thousands of game hours.
This is a perfect example.

One cannot be skilled at this game and it is easy to show why. The odds never add up. For example 1:X over X turns should net a zero return at best.
If you are looking at Black or Red or Evens or Odds, you are at 1:1, but almost everyone forgets that 0 and 00 aren't included in these odds. Therefore the odds are really 9:10 or 18/38, which unless someone is cheating, means only the house can win in the long run.

In fact, I knew someone with the Nevada Gaming Commission that said, since the house would always win, that there were very carefully computed guidelines on win/loss statistics. If there were too many winners or losers they would go in and inspect the gaming tables involved as they had to be fixed or defective.

The truth is that "Games of Chance" can't be beaten, with the exception of BlackJack. And it can only be beaten over time, if the player(s) are counting cards, which (in the USA, technically at least) is illegal. I know this because my father used to play BlackJack and one night when he was really sharp he had counted enough of the cards correctly out of the dealers shoe, that he was winning almost every hand. The pit boss, walked up to him and very politely asked if he was counting cards. My father asked, what of it, and the gentleman replied that it wasn't legal and was he indeed counting cards. My father replied that he was indeed counting cards. At this point the gentleman smiled and said that my father would have to leave for the evening. He would be comped his rooms at the casino hotel and could come back the following evening but he was finished for that evening. My father was accompanied to the window and cashed out.

In Poker, the House wins in much the same way that Bookies win, by covering both sides of the bets and taking a cut no matter what happens. Another friend of mine who worked with computers in a casino said that a well run casino was basically a license to print money. I think it's more like a license to take people's money from them.

I hope that they get good value for that money.

BTW, I don't gamble, the math just doesn't justify the attempt and I can't be bothered to learn to play poker or another comparable game well enough to win.

I only make money in casinos. They occasionally need my services as a Theatre Technician.
__________________
Many men, of course, became extremely rich, but this was perfectly natural, and nothing to be ashamed of, because no one was really poor -- at least no one worth speaking of. - Douglas Adams
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 03.06.2010, 21:50
The_Love_Doctor's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Zugerberg, Zug
Posts: 3,266
Groaned at 72 Times in 58 Posts
Thanked 3,715 Times in 1,747 Posts
The_Love_Doctor has a reputation beyond reputeThe_Love_Doctor has a reputation beyond reputeThe_Love_Doctor has a reputation beyond reputeThe_Love_Doctor has a reputation beyond reputeThe_Love_Doctor has a reputation beyond reputeThe_Love_Doctor has a reputation beyond repute
Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

Sorry but what on earth are you talking about? The house always wins in Poker??? This is no table poker we're talking about! This is Texas Holdem Baby! Omaha! And other variants! The concept is completely different and for "The House" to make any money they charge a fee per game for tournaments or an hourly/percentage rake!! Or they have to entice losing players into gambling money on games of chance like 6+ deck blackjack from an automatic shoe which there is no consistant way of beating or roulette which is biased towards the house!
You did say you don't know how to play so fair enough!

Quote:
View Post

In Poker, the House wins in much the same way that Bookies win, by covering both sides of the bets and taking a cut no matter what happens. Another friend of mine who worked with computers in a casino said that a well run casino was basically a license to print money. I think it's more like a license to take people's money from them.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 03.06.2010, 22:35
the_clangers's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: St. Louis, MO was St Prex, VD
Posts: 1,999
Groaned at 17 Times in 14 Posts
Thanked 1,185 Times in 697 Posts
the_clangers has a reputation beyond reputethe_clangers has a reputation beyond reputethe_clangers has a reputation beyond reputethe_clangers has a reputation beyond reputethe_clangers has a reputation beyond repute
Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
taking a cut no matter what happens.
Quote:
View Post
Sorry but what on earth are you talking about? The house always wins in Poker??? This is no table poker we're talking about! This is Texas Holdem Baby! Omaha! And other variants! The concept is completely different and for "The House" to make any money they charge a fee per game for tournaments or an hourly/percentage rake!! Or they have to entice losing players into gambling money on games of chance like 6+ deck blackjack from an automatic shoe which there is no consistant way of beating or roulette which is biased towards the house!
You did say you don't know how to play so fair enough!
I fail to see any real difference between the bold item from my previous post and the bold items in your post. I would assume that there is some fee, whether hidden or up front, for buying in, so to speak. In that way the House Wins. If not they wouldn't be there. There must be some reason why there are so many variants of Poker tournaments.

Don't know how to play and don't particularly care. I just wanted to point out that there is 'No free lunch." You will pay, some how, some way. The only difference being that those who win will get more back than they put in.
__________________
Many men, of course, became extremely rich, but this was perfectly natural, and nothing to be ashamed of, because no one was really poor -- at least no one worth speaking of. - Douglas Adams
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 03.06.2010, 22:46
litespeed's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dietikon ZH
Posts: 2,244
Groaned at 20 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 3,263 Times in 1,016 Posts
litespeed has a reputation beyond reputelitespeed has a reputation beyond reputelitespeed has a reputation beyond reputelitespeed has a reputation beyond reputelitespeed has a reputation beyond reputelitespeed has a reputation beyond repute
Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

I managed a CCTV surveillance department in an A-Koncession casino in Switzerland. I can with authority say:

Poker is predominantly a game of skill..some mathematical, others six-sense and experience skills. Chance plays a secondary roll, but a roll nonetheless.

But I believe live games belong in casinos under camera. Properly trained croupier and video dispute resolution, and the oversight of the ESBK.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank litespeed for this useful post:
  #46  
Old 04.06.2010, 09:26
The_Love_Doctor's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Zugerberg, Zug
Posts: 3,266
Groaned at 72 Times in 58 Posts
Thanked 3,715 Times in 1,747 Posts
The_Love_Doctor has a reputation beyond reputeThe_Love_Doctor has a reputation beyond reputeThe_Love_Doctor has a reputation beyond reputeThe_Love_Doctor has a reputation beyond reputeThe_Love_Doctor has a reputation beyond reputeThe_Love_Doctor has a reputation beyond repute
Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
I fail to see any real difference between the bold item from my previous post and the bold items in your post. I would assume that there is some fee, whether hidden or up front, for buying in, so to speak. In that way the House Wins. If not they wouldn't be there. There must be some reason why there are so many variants of Poker tournaments.

Don't know how to play and don't particularly care. I just wanted to point out that there is 'No free lunch." You will pay, some how, some way. The only difference being that those who win will get more back than they put in.
Look the phrase the house always win doesn't apply here that's all I was trying to say

Because in traditional chance games, the house loses from time to time and wins from time to time and eventually the reason why the house always wins is because the players don't and are not allowed to bet money big enough to bankrupt the house!
e.g. Player A: Bets $500 on red equal chance with the house if we ignore the zero but eventually as the guy carries on playing and if we start taking into consideration other players betting the opposite way and the zero/double zero then the house will take a cut, be able to pay the others and make money....

However in Poker the House can be eliminated... (e.g. home games) The house are the players themselves...

anyway I think my point is clear... you must have misunderstood something somewhere or I may be taking your expression (The house always wins) too seriously
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 04.06.2010, 09:49
the_clangers's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: St. Louis, MO was St Prex, VD
Posts: 1,999
Groaned at 17 Times in 14 Posts
Thanked 1,185 Times in 697 Posts
the_clangers has a reputation beyond reputethe_clangers has a reputation beyond reputethe_clangers has a reputation beyond reputethe_clangers has a reputation beyond reputethe_clangers has a reputation beyond repute
Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
Look the phrase the house always win doesn't apply here that's all I was trying to say

Because in traditional chance games, the house loses from time to time and wins from time to time and eventually the reason why the house always wins is because the players don't and are not allowed to bet money big enough to bankrupt the house!
e.g. Player A: Bets $500 on red equal chance with the house if we ignore the zero but eventually as the guy carries on playing and if we start taking into consideration other players betting the opposite way and the zero/double zero then the house will take a cut, be able to pay the others and make money....

However in Poker the House can be eliminated... (e.g. home games) The house are the players themselves...

anyway I think my point is clear... you must have misunderstood something somewhere or I may be taking your expression (The house always wins) too seriously
I understand that in poker it may be possible to bankrupt the house or what have you.

But, in true games of chance, the possibility of the house going bust are less than the odds of an airplane crashing into the middle of the casino while you are placing the bet. The house loses somewhere between 40 to 49 percent of the time. Calculate how much money is bet over the course of the evening and you get at least 2% of that as the house. I can't remember the exact percentages, but I do know that I have seen them and the House is required by law, at least in the USA, to post what those percentages are. They are also required to post the expected maximum deviation from those percentages. If they go over or under, they get real nervous. Because the appearance of impropriety is a big deal with the Gaming commissions.

Eg. Roulette. There are 38 numbers on the wheel. And yet when you bet on red, your odds are 1/2 of 36 out of 38 because of 0 and 00. The math is brutally simple. Unless the game is rigged you will lose. THis is also why the house doesn't mind big winners every now and then. It baits the rest of the marks.
__________________
Many men, of course, became extremely rich, but this was perfectly natural, and nothing to be ashamed of, because no one was really poor -- at least no one worth speaking of. - Douglas Adams
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 04.06.2010, 10:04
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

Quote:
Poker is predominantly a game of skill..some mathematical, others six-sense and experience skills. Chance plays a secondary roll, but a roll nonetheless.
Exactly !!
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 04.06.2010, 10:17
martin34's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Niederglatt
Posts: 715
Groaned at 39 Times in 30 Posts
Thanked 304 Times in 185 Posts
martin34 has earned the respect of manymartin34 has earned the respect of manymartin34 has earned the respect of many
Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
That is like saying Monopoly is a game of chance because of the random motion generator called dice. .
But Monopoly is a game of chance.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 04.06.2010, 10:20
Shove's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 167
Groaned at 8 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 87 Times in 51 Posts
Shove has no particular reputation at present
Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
I understand that in poker it may be possible to bankrupt the house or what have you.

But, in true games of chance, the possibility of the house going bust are less than the odds of an airplane crashing into the middle of the casino while you are placing the bet. The house loses somewhere between 40 to 49 percent of the time. Calculate how much money is bet over the course of the evening and you get at least 2% of that as the house. I can't remember the exact percentages, but I do know that I have seen them and the House is required by law, at least in the USA, to post what those percentages are. They are also required to post the expected maximum deviation from those percentages. If they go over or under, they get real nervous. Because the appearance of impropriety is a big deal with the Gaming commissions.

Eg. Roulette. There are 38 numbers on the wheel. And yet when you bet on red, your odds are 1/2 of 36 out of 38 because of 0 and 00. The math is brutally simple. Unless the game is rigged you will lose. THis is also why the house doesn't mind big winners every now and then. It baits the rest of the marks.
You have a point, just not one that is applicable to poker as it is being discussed in this thread. The only poker this applies to is to casino table game variations like Caribbean stud poker which is more akin to blackjack than poker as a player plays against the house. In true poker a player plays against other players. The house merely provides the facilities (table and dealer) and takes a comission from every pot. This game is beatable because I can play against other players where the "edge" is determined by who is the best player rather than conditions intrinsic to the game (such as the red-black bet in roulette paying evens for a 18-19 shot). If my advantage over the other players is greater than the comission the house takes from pots I win, then I make money
For games of chance where the player plays against the house casinos rely on the law of large numbers and table limits to make sure they always win...The difference between casinos and financial markets is that in casinos the model is perfect becuase they deal with outcomes of events with known probabilities. Beautifully normally distributed returns lacking fat tails. What a beautiful way to make money.
Interesting as the business is, the point you are making does not apply here as poker is player vs player rather than player vs house with a house edge.
__________________
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be. ~ Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001)
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 04.06.2010, 10:43
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

I play a little, but not enough to say i'm really any good.

I would like to ask Shove and the other more experienced players something...could you beat a computer at poker (presuming it played the %ages etc). My hunch would be no, which is why they say it is a chance game, because if everyone was able to work out the odds like a computer, then whoever got dealt the best hand would win. At the moment, I notice that the better players I play against know the odds on most of the hands that flop, and i think armed with that kind of knowledge, bluffing becomes much easier.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 04.06.2010, 10:49
larrylizzard's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 583
Groaned at 4 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 191 Times in 119 Posts
larrylizzard has earned some respectlarrylizzard has earned some respect
Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

Im happy to host games and do on a regular basis, it needs to be Friday nights.

PM me your email if your interested.

Im always happy to take Shove's money although everytime ive invited him he was too scared ;0)
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank larrylizzard for this useful post:
  #53  
Old 04.06.2010, 10:49
economisto
 
Posts: n/a
Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

Quote:
I play a little, but not enough to say i'm really any good.

I would like to ask Shove and the other more experienced players something...could you beat a computer at poker (presuming it played the %ages etc). My hunch would be no, which is why they say it is a chance game, because if everyone was able to work out the odds like a computer, then whoever got dealt the best hand would win. At the moment, I notice that the better players I play against know the odds on most of the hands that flop, and i think armed with that kind of knowledge, bluffing becomes much easier.
Easily. While drunk and with consummate ease I could beat the most powerful supercomputer in the world at poker.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 04.06.2010, 10:54
larrylizzard's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 583
Groaned at 4 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 191 Times in 119 Posts
larrylizzard has earned some respectlarrylizzard has earned some respect
Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

StirB, I agree you not very good!

Quote:
I play a little, but not enough to say i'm really any good.

I would like to ask Shove and the other more experienced players something...could you beat a computer at poker (presuming it played the %ages etc). My hunch would be no, which is why they say it is a chance game, because if everyone was able to work out the odds like a computer, then whoever got dealt the best hand would win. At the moment, I notice that the better players I play against know the odds on most of the hands that flop, and i think armed with that kind of knowledge, bluffing becomes much easier.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank larrylizzard for this useful post:
  #55  
Old 04.06.2010, 11:04
Shove's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 167
Groaned at 8 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 87 Times in 51 Posts
Shove has no particular reputation at present
Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

Quote:
I play a little, but not enough to say i'm really any good.

I would like to ask Shove and the other more experienced players something...could you beat a computer at poker (presuming it played the %ages etc). My hunch would be no, which is why they say it is a chance game, because if everyone was able to work out the odds like a computer, then whoever got dealt the best hand would win. At the moment, I notice that the better players I play against know the odds on most of the hands that flop, and i think armed with that kind of knowledge, bluffing becomes much easier.

Depends on machine, player, and variation of the game. The machine should win limit, but no limit opens up another level of complexity and if we are talking best in the world vs best in the world my money is on the player (I choose Phil Ivey, Tom Dwan or Antonius please).

This wasn't the best in the world, but Laak is a decent player whatever anyone says....


http://www.poker-academy.com/man-machine/results.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonatha...Poker:_Polaris
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 04.06.2010, 11:06
economisto
 
Posts: n/a
Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
Depends on machine, player, and variation of the game. The machine should win limit, but no limit opens up another level of complexity and if we are talking best in the world vs best in the world my money is on the player (I choose Phil Ivey, Tom Dwan or Antonius please).

This wasn't the best in the world, but Laak is a decent player whatever anyone says....


http://www.poker-academy.com/man-machine/results.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonatha...Poker:_Polaris
Actually I revise my comments: it depends on what the computer is programmed to do. But if it's just odds and rules, it's an easy beat. If it's designed to analyse my play and respond to it, it might be impossible to beat.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 04.06.2010, 11:07
Shove's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 167
Groaned at 8 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 87 Times in 51 Posts
Shove has no particular reputation at present
Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
Im happy to host games and do on a regular basis, it needs to be Friday nights.

PM me your email if your interested.

Im always happy to take Shove's money although everytime ive invited him he was too scared ;0)
Dude. I am still spending your money after pwning you last time .
Save me a seat on your left (I know you like it when I am there ) and fix a date. Next Friday I am all yours...
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Shove for this useful post:
  #58  
Old 04.06.2010, 11:08
economisto
 
Posts: n/a
Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
Dude. I am still spending your money after pwning you last time .
Save me a seat on your left (I know you like it when I am there ) and fix a date. Next Friday I am all yours...
where will this be?
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 04.06.2010, 11:14
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 14,742
Groaned at 284 Times in 189 Posts
Thanked 18,634 Times in 7,826 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

Quote:
I play a little, but not enough to say i'm really any good.

I would like to ask Shove and the other more experienced players something...could you beat a computer at poker (presuming it played the %ages etc). My hunch would be no, which is why they say it is a chance game, because if everyone was able to work out the odds like a computer, then whoever got dealt the best hand would win. At the moment, I notice that the better players I play against know the odds on most of the hands that flop, and i think armed with that kind of knowledge, bluffing becomes much easier.
NLH you can beat a computer. LH can be trickier. There's a university in the US which is researching in this area and they have an interesting AI.

The software is here:

http://www.parttimepoker.com/review-...-academy-pro-2

I bought PA as a way to learn poker and it was very interesting. When they introduced an online element, you saw interesting effects in action. After a very short time, the very good players pretty soon scooped up all the online currency (PAX) at one point, the #1 player had more PAX than the next 100.

If you get the software, you can play online HU against Polaris, the most advanced HU limit AI from the university of alberta. A tough challenge.

EDIT: i didn't see a subsequent game in 2008 with a much improved polaris:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris_%28poker_bot%29
__________________
By replying to this post, you hereby grant Phil_MCR a royalty-free license to use, in any way, anything posted by you on the internet. If you do not accept, stop using EF and delete your account.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 04.06.2010, 11:18
The_Love_Doctor's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Zugerberg, Zug
Posts: 3,266
Groaned at 72 Times in 58 Posts
Thanked 3,715 Times in 1,747 Posts
The_Love_Doctor has a reputation beyond reputeThe_Love_Doctor has a reputation beyond reputeThe_Love_Doctor has a reputation beyond reputeThe_Love_Doctor has a reputation beyond reputeThe_Love_Doctor has a reputation beyond reputeThe_Love_Doctor has a reputation beyond repute
Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

Quote:
I play a little, but not enough to say i'm really any good.

I would like to ask Shove and the other more experienced players something...could you beat a computer at poker (presuming it played the %ages etc). My hunch would be no, which is why they say it is a chance game, because if everyone was able to work out the odds like a computer, then whoever got dealt the best hand would win. At the moment, I notice that the better players I play against know the odds on most of the hands that flop, and i think armed with that kind of knowledge, bluffing becomes much easier.
Playing against a computer that knows the odds only is not gonna make much of a difference... as I said in one of my previous post it's all about strategy... if the computer's programmed strategy is better than your strategy for the chosen game, then the computer will win, if your strategy is better than the computers than you will win...

If you had one hand, one pot then the result is 50/50 with a possibility of a draw hand. In that sense poker is truely just luck, and if you play this sort of game then you are merely gambling!
A typical tournament which lasts between 6 hours and 8 hours depending on you being able to take advantage of other players bad play initially and make some good decisions in the mid stages, and some aggressive play when the blinds go up is key to going deep and getting into the money positions. That is one potential strategy...
Sit n Go tight games where a game lasts between 45mins and 90mins again depending on how well you do in the early stages can also be very profitable in the long run provided you have a strategy that you can stick to, and provided that you play against regular players and against 50% of fish (beginner players). You need to choose your tables, you need to play against people that are considered a bit loose in the early stages. Poker is a game of deception before anything else you need to make your oponents pay when you have the good cards and pay them less when they have the good cards... you need to look after your stack ...
In a cash game however you must change your strategy... the blinds are fixed, and the strategy depends on your bankroll, how much damage you can sustain and ability to gain edge on your oponents by following the game, and the changing game play and psychology of other players... and hence discipline plays a major role...

It's very easy to make assumptions when you don't know the game very well and that is why we're having some opinions that might seem contradictory at times.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
poker ban illegal




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hydrogenated Vegetable Oil, banned in Switzerland? brüder Food and drink 5 25.08.2013 18:33
How to alienate yourself and get banned [was Islam and Integration in Switzerland] Baronas General off-topic 42 31.12.2007 16:56
Tennis: Where is the cheapest court in Switzerland? HAT Sports / Fitness / Beauty / Wellness 4 02.10.2007 19:08
Poker [seeking poker/game shop near Zurich] larueegg Other/general 6 10.11.2006 22:42


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 03:06.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0