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-   -   POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/85100-poker-banned-federal-court-switzerland.html)

The_Love_Doctor 03.06.2010 09:40

POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland
 
1 Attachment(s)
POKER BANNED BY THE FEDERAL COURT IN SWITZERLAND



Twilight of the gods in the poker world: the poker ban by the Federal Court , and disappointment in the young industry has triggered consternation.
Die einen sehen das Ende nahen, die anderen berufen eine Krisensitzung ein: Im Pokerclub «Raise Place» in Regensberg ZH sind derzeit einige Pokergrössen versammelt und diskutieren, wie man mit dem Urteil, das einem Todesstoss gleichkommt, umgehen will.

Some see the end approaching, the other one called a crisis meeting: The Poker Club "Raise Place 'in Regensberg ZH are currently some poker sizes gathered to discuss how we will deal with the verdict, which is tantamount to a death blow. [Translation by Google]

Read more: 20min.ch article + Interview with one of the big organisers

Upthehatters2008 03.06.2010 13:18

Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland
 
Or in non Googlish...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...-private-poker

Sada 03.06.2010 14:01

Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland
 
So what do the poker players on here say, is it a game of skills or chance?
It always seemed to me that it takes quite a bit of skills and of course a bit of luck too no?!

Upthehatters2008 03.06.2010 14:11

Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sada (Post 832625)
So what do the poker players on here say, is it a game of skills or chance?
It always seemed to me that it takes quite a bit of skills and of course a bit of luck too no?!


It's a game of chance. Based on the random dealing of a shuffled pack of cards. No amount of skill will effect the deal BUT skill can and will affect the pot or winnings as lesser skilled players are manipulated / fooled / read etc.

Am a bit miffed, I enjoyed my Monday evening Poker at Pot Belly's.

Guest 03.06.2010 14:16

Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland
 
Quote:

It's a game of chance. Based on the random dealing of a shuffled pack of cards. No amount of skill will effect the deal BUT skill can and will affect the pot or winnings as lesser skilled players are manipulated / fooled / read etc.
So it's not a game of chance then ???

It's been said by many pro's that it's 30% chance and 70% skill.

My opinion is it's skill. Sure you have random hole cards but after that skill is paramount.

You could say Cricket is chance because they do a random coin toss before match..

Disgraceful decision obviously made from applied pressure by Casino owners.

Sad day.

Upthehatters2008 03.06.2010 14:21

Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mikee (Post 832669)
So it's not a game of chance then ???

It's been said by many pro's that it's 30% chance and 70% skill.

My opinion is it's skill. Sure you have random hole cards but after that skill is paramount.

You could say Cricket is chance because they do a random coin toss before match..

Disgraceful decision obviously made from applied pressure by Casino owners.

Sad day.

It is still a game of chance. You cannot effect the outcome of the cards being dealt and that is what the law will be concerned with. Pro's will say skill, because that's what it takes to become a Pro and get rich. If you have two equal Pro's , of equal skill, the randomness of the cards will dictate the winner.

larrylizzard 03.06.2010 14:36

Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland
 
In my opinion it is more a game of skill and not a game of chance.

How is it that so many players are consistently winning tournaments of hundreds or thousands of people?

Its a sad day for poker players.

03.06.2010 14:41

Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sada (Post 832625)
So what do the poker players on here say, is it a game of skills or chance?
It always seemed to me that it takes quite a bit of skills and of course a bit of luck too no?!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 832684)
It is still a game of chance. You cannot effect the outcome of the cards being dealt and that is what the law will be concerned with. Pro's will say skill, because that's what it takes to become a Pro and get rich. If you have two equal Pro's , of equal skill, the randomness of the cards will dictate the winner.

It's both. In the ultra short term it falls to near 100% chance, in the longest term variance is evened out and it translates to 100% skill. That's why you can sit down with a world champion and take their money. For a while.

Guest 03.06.2010 15:04

Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland
 
Quote:

If you have two equal Pro's , of equal skill, the randomness of the cards will dictate the winner.
Quote:

It is still a game of chance.
How can you have two pro's of equal skill if no skill is involved?
You are contradicting yourself.

You are forgetting the fact that in the majority of hands NO cards are shown and so the deal is irrelevant.

The deal is rarely black and white i.e. AA vs 72. It is normally average hands where the skill/position/bluffing/read of good players is paramount.

Luck plays a minority part I admit but skill is key.

Upthehatters2008 03.06.2010 15:14

Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mikee (Post 832774)
How can you have two pro's of equal skill if no skill is involved?
You are contradicting yourself..

Players can be very skilled at a game of chance. Nothing contradictory about that. Skill comes into the side plays, reading other players bluffs, body language , poker faces etc. The law concerns itself with the probabilty and dealing mechanics not with the way players conduct themselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikee (Post 832774)
You are forgetting the fact that in the majority of hands NO cards are shown and so the deal is irrelevant.

I am not forgetting anything. I come from a gaming background, employment in Casinos and Gambling Web sites etc. I am well aware how the game is played and there are no statistics to back up your claim above. It may be your personal experience though.

03.06.2010 15:18

Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 832795)
Players can be very skilled at a game of chance.

Sorry, no they can't. It is in fact, contradictory. Skill and Chance, especially as gaming concepts, are contraindicative. One cannot be skilled at roulette. My personal experience is based on thousands of game hours.

BUGFROMHELL 03.06.2010 15:21

Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sada (Post 832625)
So what do the poker players on here say, is it a game of skills or chance?
It always seemed to me that it takes quite a bit of skills and of course a bit of luck too no?!

I don't like cards but do enjoy playing poker. I had a poker night last night. I don't have too much experience with it but I ended up 3rd out of 12, most of 'em were very good at it.

I guess chance is the factor number 1 and then you can increase your chance by playing carefully...

Also, if you wear a cap and sunglasses, do you win more easily ??? :msncool:

the_clangers 03.06.2010 15:22

Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland
 
That is like saying Monopoly is a game of chance because of the random motion generator called dice. :confused:

I think this is more about monopoly interests of casino owners than anything else.

Guest 03.06.2010 15:59

Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland
 
Quote:

I am well aware how the game is played and there are no statistics to back up your claim above. It may be your personal experience though.
You don't play much then... most hands don't go to the river i.e. showdown
Just log on to any site and look.

And you are contradicting yourself.

If it was pure chance then all hole cards would be dealt face up with no betting allowed followed by communal cards and the winner would have best hand. That is pure chance.

The skill is, a player can win with worst hand.

Guest 03.06.2010 16:00

Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland
 
Quote:

I guess chance is the factor number 1 and then you can increase your chance by playing carefully...
No. You are not increasing your chance you are playing more skillfully ;)

By playing with skill you improve your chance of winning. Hence it's a game of skill.

Peg A 03.06.2010 16:19

Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland
 
The cards you are dealt = chance... the amount you win = skill.

Bluffing and knowing when to fold are the parts that take skill, being able to read people.


Meanwhile, I suspect that while the ruling does have something to do with the casinos being upset at the money they're not getting, I'm more sure that it has to do with the money the government is not getting via taxes normally paid by the casinos in games of chance.

So, if you want to be able to play where you like, work out something with the government regarding taxable winnings.

scrambled 03.06.2010 16:19

Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland
 
it is indeed a game of chance

where the skill comes into play is that you have control over accepting or rejecting the odds that you're presented with

over time if you make more good decisions than bad, you can expect a positive outcome


even in a game like roulette, there are elements of skill involved. i'm not too familiar with the exact odds the game offers, but some bets are definitely worse than others: even though the expected value of every bet you make in roulette is negative, some are more negative than others.

Guest 03.06.2010 16:32

Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland
 
Quote:

it is indeed a game of chance

where the skill comes into play is that you have control over accepting or rejecting the odds that you're presented with
Some strange statements on here today?

You cannot call it a game of chance and then discuss how skillfull it is..

You could deal me the worst hand 10 times in a row and I could win every game. That is not chance.

Even if you get bad cards you can "skillfully" bluff you have good ones and win, hence, negating the effects of the deal.

Upthehatters2008 03.06.2010 16:36

Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 832801)
Sorry, no they can't. It is in fact, contradictory. Skill and Chance, especially as gaming concepts, are contraindicative. One cannot be skilled at roulette. My personal experience is based on thousands of game hours.


Your skill does not affect the wheel, but it tells you when to quit... Your skill cuts your losses or maximises a win situation. It does not affect IF you win or not, just HOW you win or lose.

Shove 03.06.2010 16:42

Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BUGFROMHELL (Post 832814)

I guess chance is the factor number 1 and then you can increase your chance by playing carefully...

Also, if you wear a cap and sunglasses, do you win more easily ??? :msncool:

No and no (erm and no). If you play a turbo tournament like that then luck becomes a bigger factor as good players have less chance to use their skill. Take it to it's extreme. If you all get dealt 1 card and everyone is All-In on that hand there is no skill involved. Depending on the structure playing "carefully" can be the worst of all possible tactics.

If you wear sunglasses and a hat whilst sitting down with less than CHF2k you are just more likely to get laughed at than win. If other players were good enough to get a tell from your eyes then they will be playing at higher stakes..Hat and sunnies, (unless you are purposefully taking the p1ss and being funny which is good), just shows a lack of understanding of the game dynamics.....

I consistantly beat No limit Hold 'Em casino games which are typically at a €2/€4 or €5/€10 blind level. A lot of the players from my home game poker round in München were full time professionals (JanH appeared on Stefan Raab as a guest profi, JoramV & on German High Rollers, GeorgD on the German High Stakes show). These guys are used to sitting down with upwards of 30k at a time. They are more skilled than me and very hard to beat (but playing with them improved my game beyond recognition).
Fact is, the cards are a small but essential part of the game. Much more important is correct strategy for the game of choice with the given format, with respect to given stack sizes and odds be they pot, implied, or reverse-implied.
You cannot stop getting dealt KK when the other guy gets AA and you then lose a stack. That is the luck element. Neither can you prevent being dealt AA shipping a stack, watching a guy make an awful call with 33 and watch him river a straight. What you can do (which is absolutely nothing to do with luck) is use exploitive play to play the most appropriate (profitable) way vs a given opponent with a given stack size,...etc. So much of the game is about pot manipulation (in a legal way, through making appropriately sized bets) combined with an understanding of playing vs peoples "ranges". This is what we refer to as putting someone on a hand. (Never try and put someone on one EXACT HAND.) You should attempt to define the range of hands other players play in given circumstances, narrow that range and base decisions on the weighted average of outcomes vs that range.

Example I sit with CHF1000 with blinds of CHF1 / CHF2 and another guy (unrealistically) raises ALL IN so I have to call CHF1000 to continue. if I absolutley "know" this guy will only ever do that with AA or KK then if I lookl down and see QQ it is an easy fold as I am way behind vs the entire range of hands he can play like this. However if I "know" this guy will do that with all of the possible 169 possible non-equivalent starting hands then I am well ahead vs 164 of them, roughly fifty-fifty vs 2 of them (AK off and AK suited) and a huge underdog vs 2 of them (AA & KK) so it's snap-call-fist-pump-time. The "knowing" is the bit where we rely on betting patterns, tells, and shock-unpolitically correct-horror (lacking better information) stereotyping based on age, sex, race, attire and attitude. There is a poker book called "Let there be range" that was being sold for $1,850 (yes it is great and no it is not worth that much) it states when playing online check where someone is from and then


If it's somewhere in Scandinavia or Russia, always click call if it's a close decision between folding and calling.



All these tools and many, many others help you make the correct decisions time and time again. The better you do this, the better player you can be.


Everyone will get dealt the same cards (by which I mean a fair and random distribution of hands from the 1326 possible combinations available), everyone will see the same flop, turn, and river. What you do from then depends on how well you play. The best in the world can 3-bet bluff with air (lousy cards) one hand and routinely fold QQ the next-IF it is the best poker decision.


Poker is absolutely a game of skill, which by setting certain conditions you can change to make a game of luck and skill. Do this by increasing the blinds relative to the stacks as in a tournement. It's like making Brazil play an amateur team at footy (soccer) where everyone is blindfolded. Of course Brazil are still the better team, but you have certainly improved the amateurs chances. I saw the irony in the law as it was that good players recognise cash games (you play for real money-when you bet CHF100 it is really CHF100-and you get up and leave when you want) involve less luck (variance) that tournaments, but tournaments were permitted outside casinos and cash games were not.

All this talk of poker whets the appetite. Anyone want to sit down and we can all try and get lucky sometime soon?


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