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Old 03.06.2010, 09:40
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POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

POKER BANNED BY THE FEDERAL COURT IN SWITZERLAND



Twilight of the gods in the poker world: the poker ban by the Federal Court , and disappointment in the young industry has triggered consternation.
Die einen sehen das Ende nahen, die anderen berufen eine Krisensitzung ein: Im Pokerclub «Raise Place» in Regensberg ZH sind derzeit einige Pokergrössen versammelt und diskutieren, wie man mit dem Urteil, das einem Todesstoss gleichkommt, umgehen will.

Some see the end approaching, the other one called a crisis meeting: The Poker Club "Raise Place 'in Regensberg ZH are currently some poker sizes gathered to discuss how we will deal with the verdict, which is tantamount to a death blow. [Translation by Google]

Read more: 20min.ch article + Interview with one of the big organisers
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Old 03.06.2010, 13:18
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Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

Or in non Googlish...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...-private-poker
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Old 03.06.2010, 14:01
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Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

So what do the poker players on here say, is it a game of skills or chance?
It always seemed to me that it takes quite a bit of skills and of course a bit of luck too no?!
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Old 03.06.2010, 14:11
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Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

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So what do the poker players on here say, is it a game of skills or chance?
It always seemed to me that it takes quite a bit of skills and of course a bit of luck too no?!

It's a game of chance. Based on the random dealing of a shuffled pack of cards. No amount of skill will effect the deal BUT skill can and will affect the pot or winnings as lesser skilled players are manipulated / fooled / read etc.

Am a bit miffed, I enjoyed my Monday evening Poker at Pot Belly's.
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Old 03.06.2010, 14:16
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Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

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It's a game of chance. Based on the random dealing of a shuffled pack of cards. No amount of skill will effect the deal BUT skill can and will affect the pot or winnings as lesser skilled players are manipulated / fooled / read etc.
So it's not a game of chance then ???

It's been said by many pro's that it's 30% chance and 70% skill.

My opinion is it's skill. Sure you have random hole cards but after that skill is paramount.

You could say Cricket is chance because they do a random coin toss before match..

Disgraceful decision obviously made from applied pressure by Casino owners.

Sad day.
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Old 03.06.2010, 14:21
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Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

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So it's not a game of chance then ???

It's been said by many pro's that it's 30% chance and 70% skill.

My opinion is it's skill. Sure you have random hole cards but after that skill is paramount.

You could say Cricket is chance because they do a random coin toss before match..

Disgraceful decision obviously made from applied pressure by Casino owners.

Sad day.
It is still a game of chance. You cannot effect the outcome of the cards being dealt and that is what the law will be concerned with. Pro's will say skill, because that's what it takes to become a Pro and get rich. If you have two equal Pro's , of equal skill, the randomness of the cards will dictate the winner.
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Old 03.06.2010, 14:36
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Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

In my opinion it is more a game of skill and not a game of chance.

How is it that so many players are consistently winning tournaments of hundreds or thousands of people?

Its a sad day for poker players.
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Old 03.06.2010, 15:21
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Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

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So what do the poker players on here say, is it a game of skills or chance?
It always seemed to me that it takes quite a bit of skills and of course a bit of luck too no?!
I don't like cards but do enjoy playing poker. I had a poker night last night. I don't have too much experience with it but I ended up 3rd out of 12, most of 'em were very good at it.

I guess chance is the factor number 1 and then you can increase your chance by playing carefully...

Also, if you wear a cap and sunglasses, do you win more easily ???
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Old 03.06.2010, 16:42
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Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

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I guess chance is the factor number 1 and then you can increase your chance by playing carefully...

Also, if you wear a cap and sunglasses, do you win more easily ???
No and no (erm and no). If you play a turbo tournament like that then luck becomes a bigger factor as good players have less chance to use their skill. Take it to it's extreme. If you all get dealt 1 card and everyone is All-In on that hand there is no skill involved. Depending on the structure playing "carefully" can be the worst of all possible tactics.

If you wear sunglasses and a hat whilst sitting down with less than CHF2k you are just more likely to get laughed at than win. If other players were good enough to get a tell from your eyes then they will be playing at higher stakes..Hat and sunnies, (unless you are purposefully taking the p1ss and being funny which is good), just shows a lack of understanding of the game dynamics.....

I consistantly beat No limit Hold 'Em casino games which are typically at a €2/€4 or €5/€10 blind level. A lot of the players from my home game poker round in München were full time professionals (JanH appeared on Stefan Raab as a guest profi, JoramV & on German High Rollers, GeorgD on the German High Stakes show). These guys are used to sitting down with upwards of 30k at a time. They are more skilled than me and very hard to beat (but playing with them improved my game beyond recognition).
Fact is, the cards are a small but essential part of the game. Much more important is correct strategy for the game of choice with the given format, with respect to given stack sizes and odds be they pot, implied, or reverse-implied.
You cannot stop getting dealt KK when the other guy gets AA and you then lose a stack. That is the luck element. Neither can you prevent being dealt AA shipping a stack, watching a guy make an awful call with 33 and watch him river a straight. What you can do (which is absolutely nothing to do with luck) is use exploitive play to play the most appropriate (profitable) way vs a given opponent with a given stack size,...etc. So much of the game is about pot manipulation (in a legal way, through making appropriately sized bets) combined with an understanding of playing vs peoples "ranges". This is what we refer to as putting someone on a hand. (Never try and put someone on one EXACT HAND.) You should attempt to define the range of hands other players play in given circumstances, narrow that range and base decisions on the weighted average of outcomes vs that range.

Example I sit with CHF1000 with blinds of CHF1 / CHF2 and another guy (unrealistically) raises ALL IN so I have to call CHF1000 to continue. if I absolutley "know" this guy will only ever do that with AA or KK then if I lookl down and see QQ it is an easy fold as I am way behind vs the entire range of hands he can play like this. However if I "know" this guy will do that with all of the possible 169 possible non-equivalent starting hands then I am well ahead vs 164 of them, roughly fifty-fifty vs 2 of them (AK off and AK suited) and a huge underdog vs 2 of them (AA & KK) so it's snap-call-fist-pump-time. The "knowing" is the bit where we rely on betting patterns, tells, and shock-unpolitically correct-horror (lacking better information) stereotyping based on age, sex, race, attire and attitude. There is a poker book called "Let there be range" that was being sold for $1,850 (yes it is great and no it is not worth that much) it states when playing online check where someone is from and then


If it's somewhere in Scandinavia or Russia, always click call if it's a close decision between folding and calling.



All these tools and many, many others help you make the correct decisions time and time again. The better you do this, the better player you can be.


Everyone will get dealt the same cards (by which I mean a fair and random distribution of hands from the 1326 possible combinations available), everyone will see the same flop, turn, and river. What you do from then depends on how well you play. The best in the world can 3-bet bluff with air (lousy cards) one hand and routinely fold QQ the next-IF it is the best poker decision.


Poker is absolutely a game of skill, which by setting certain conditions you can change to make a game of luck and skill. Do this by increasing the blinds relative to the stacks as in a tournement. It's like making Brazil play an amateur team at footy (soccer) where everyone is blindfolded. Of course Brazil are still the better team, but you have certainly improved the amateurs chances. I saw the irony in the law as it was that good players recognise cash games (you play for real money-when you bet CHF100 it is really CHF100-and you get up and leave when you want) involve less luck (variance) that tournaments, but tournaments were permitted outside casinos and cash games were not.

All this talk of poker whets the appetite. Anyone want to sit down and we can all try and get lucky sometime soon?
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Last edited by Shove; 03.06.2010 at 16:52. Reason: punctuation
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Old 03.06.2010, 16:49
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Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

Yeah i'll sit down with you HU DC 1/2.

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No and no (erm and no). If you play a turbo tournament like that then luck becomes a bigger factor as good players have less chance to use their skill. Take it to it's extreme. If you all get dealt 1 card and everyone is All-In on that hand there is no skill involved. Depending on the structure playing "carefully" can be the worst of all possible tactics.

If you wear sunglasses and a hat whilst sitting down with less than CHF2k you are just more likely to get laughed at than win. If other players were good enough to get a tell from your eyes then they will be playing at higher stakes..Hat and sunnies, (unless you are purposefully taking the p1ss and being funny which is good), just shows a lack of understanding of the game dynamics.....

I consistantly beat No limit Hold 'Em casino games which are typically at a €2/€4 or €5/€10 blind level. A lot of guys from my old poker round in München were full time professionals (JanH appeared on Stefan Raab as a guest profi, JoramV & on German High Rollers, GeorgD on the German High Stakes show). These guys are used to sitting down with upwards of 30k at a time. They are more skilled than me and very hard to beat. Fact is, the cards are a small but essential part of the game. Much more important is correct strategy for the game of choice with the given format, with respect to given stack sizes and odds be they pot, implied, or reverse-implied.
You cannot stop getting dealt KK and the other guy gets AA and you lose a stack. That is the luck element. Neither can you prevent being dealt AA shipping a stack, watching a guy make an awful call with 33 and watch him river a straight. What you can do (which is absolutely nothing to do with luck) is use exploitive play to play the most appropriate (profitable) way vs a given opponent with a given stack size,...etc. So much of the game is about pot manipulation (in a legal way, through making appropriately sized bets) combined with an understanding of playing vs peoples "ranges". This is what we refer to as putting someone on a hand. (Never try and put someone on one EXACT HAND.) You should attempt to define the range of hands other players play in given circumstances and narrow that range and base decisions on the weighted average of outcomes vs that range (this is your equity).

Example I sit with CHF1000 with blinds of CHF1 / CHF2 and another guy (unrealistically) raises ALL IN so I have to call CHF1000 to continue. if I absolutley "know" this guy will only ever do that with AA or KK then if I lookl down and see QQ it is an easy fold as I am way behind vs the entire range of hands he can play like this. However if I "know" this guy will do that with all of the possible 169 possible non-equivalent starting hands then I am well ahead vs 164 of them, roughly fifty-fifty vs 2 of them (AK off and AK suited) and a huge underdog vs 2 of them (AA & KK) so it's snap-call-fist-pump-time. The "knowing" is the bit where we rely on betting patterns, tells, and shock-unpolitically correct-horror (lacking better information) stereotyping based on age, sex, race, attire and attitude. There is a poker book called "Let there be range" that was being sold for $1,850 (yes it is great and no it is not worth that much) it states when playing online check where someone is from and then

If it's somewhere in Scandinavia or Russia, always click call if it's a close decision between folding and calling.


All these tools and many, many others help you make the correct decisions time and time again. The better you do this, the better player you can be.


Everyone will get dealt the same cards (by which I mean a fair and random distribution of hands from the 1326 possible combinations available), everyone will see the same flop, turn, and river. What you do from then depends on how well you play. The best in the world can 3-bet bluff with air (lousy cards) one hand and routinely fold QQ the next IF it is the best poker decision.

Poker is absolutely a game of skill, which by setting certain conditions you can change to make a game of luck and skill. Do this by increasing the blinds relative to the stacks as in a tournement. It's like making Brazil play an amateur team at footy (soccer) where everyone is blindfolded. Of course Brazil are still the better team, but you have certainly improved the amateurs chances. I saw the irony in the law as it was that good players recognise cash games (you play for real money-when you bet CHF100 it is really CHF100-and you get up and leave when you want) involve less luck (variance) that tournaments, but tournaments were permitted outside casinos and cash games were not.

All this talk of poker whet's the appetite. Anyone want to sit down and we can all try and get lucky sometime soon?

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Old 03.06.2010, 21:46
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Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

I managed a CCTV surveillance department in an A-Koncession casino in Switzerland. I can with authority say:

Poker is predominantly a game of skill..some mathematical, others six-sense and experience skills. Chance plays a secondary roll, but a roll nonetheless.

But I believe live games belong in casinos under camera. Properly trained croupier and video dispute resolution, and the oversight of the ESBK.
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Old 10.06.2010, 14:32
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Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

Poker doesn't have to be either chance or skill, it has elements of both. The question is "to which degree". The answer depends strongly on how often you play - any single hand is almost 50-50 between any 2 players (of any skill level), but over the long run the skillful player will have a considerable advantage (but it still vulnerable to bad or good luck, which you cannot eliminate altogether).

I guess you have to draw the line somewhere and the Swiss have put it on the "gambling" side of the line - but it always surprises me that you're able to invest your life savings in the stock market, but cannot enter a 100 CHF poker tournament every week!!

Alex.

p.s. if you live in the Zug/ZurichLuzern area and you're actually interested in playing some poker, rather than just discussing it, then PM me as I organise a regular game!!
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Old 03.06.2010, 16:50
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Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

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So what do the poker players on here say, is it a game of skills or chance?
It always seemed to me that it takes quite a bit of skills and of course a bit of luck too no?!
like most games of chance, luck if you play by the rules, skill if you cheat, or a well honed ability for quick reckoning, the house always wins... in the end, or as my mate from Reno put it ''those lights weren't built on winners''
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Old 03.06.2010, 17:22
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Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

anyone wants to play against me, i'm happy to take your money
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Old 03.06.2010, 17:24
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Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

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anyone wants to play against me, i'm happy to take your money
Fine. Monday Night. I take Amex.
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Old 03.06.2010, 17:35
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Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

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anyone wants to play against me, i'm happy to take your money
Monday would work for me too next week. Game on?

Suggest NLH cash game CHF 1 / 2 with MIN CHF100 buy-in for a start, but will play lower or higher stakes so long as they are not trivially low or nosebleed high.

If you are seriously offering to host a game then please reserve me a seat!! Alternatively I will host as I said in previous posts, but then if it's a school night we need a fairly early start so people can make it back into town..

Last edited by Shove; 03.06.2010 at 17:36. Reason: next not this
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Old 03.06.2010, 17:37
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Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

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Monday would work for me too next week. Game on?

Suggest NLH cash game CHF 1 / 2 with MIN CHF100 buy-in for a start, but will play lower or higher stakes so long as they are not trivially low or nosebleed high.

If you are seriously offering to host a game then please reserve me a seat!! Alternatively I will host as I said in previous posts, but then if it's a school night we need a fairly early start so people can make it back into town..
I can't host but I'll travel anywhere that's direct from HB (Pfaffikon is fine).
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Old 03.06.2010, 17:50
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Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

The majority of professional poker players could not afford to be so without sponsorship. The majority of the top one percent of poker players could not break even (the rake gets them / they have bad runs) and so they survive through bankrolls from e.g. online gaming sites who can afford to pay them big bucks thanks to all the suckers they lure in and the rake they take.

I also think all the cheesy ads showing guys looking cool playing poker on the TV should be substituted with a few showing them down and out without money, friends and most importantly family after they think they know better, get hooked, and lose it all.

Friendly home games are another thing entirely.
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Old 03.06.2010, 18:10
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Re: POKER Banned By The Federal Court In Switzerland

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The majority of the top one percent of poker players could not break even.......

Hi,
Your sentiment is correct, but this statement is not. The top 1% will all make a living. The professionals I know in Germany are probably not in the top 1%, but they play €5 /€10 at the Bayerische Spielbanken a few times a week and they earn a "decent" salary.
There is a difference between braking even, making a living, and getting rich from the game. I know (as far as one ever can) I could maker a living from the game. That is to say I am profitable at stakes high enough to feed and cloth me and could afford to run bad for a long time and not go broke. I play better than friends I know who do earn a living this way, but I don't think I could earn as much as I do in business as in poker though and I very much enjoy what I do. I know a load of good players to whom the same applies. Bankers, Doctors, lawyers, Actuaries, hot Programmers who beat the game, but make good money professionally. Actually, most of them probably have too much respect for money to ever be truely great, which is a flaw I probably share.
It is not binary in that either you make millions or you lose your house. Threre are lots of levels inbetween. When I sit at a casino table I usually think there are one or 2 other players who make money. Sometimes there are even more good players, but so many people have a leak that stops them making money over the course. My guess would be 15-20% of casino players make money, and 5% can make a living in European casinos. Less than that can make more playing poker than using their obvious numerical and personal skills in a different profession, but under all circumstances more than 1% of players make a living from the game...As far as online is concerned there must be stats out there to answer this..
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