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Old 27.07.2010, 01:52
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Re: Swiss Train derailment [23.07.10]

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Horrifying that this can happen in Switzerland...
Train accidents in Switzerland are rare.
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  #22  
Old 27.07.2010, 02:09
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Re: Swiss Train derailment [23.07.10]

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Train accidents in Switzerland are rare.
Also from Swiss Info:

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The last time Switzerland had a fatal train crash was in 2006, when three railway workers were killed after their runaway train travelled for more than 30km with no brakes and slammed into another train near Thun, south of the Swiss capital Bern.

That was the worst railway accident since 1994, when a crane on a maintenance train swung into an express train, killing nine people.
From that I would say that accidents are incredibly rare. I suppose that makes them more shocking.
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  #23  
Old 27.07.2010, 03:05
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Re: Swiss Train derailment [23.07.10]

What about the Oerlikon crash in 2003, then? Doesn't that count?
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  #24  
Old 27.07.2010, 07:52
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Re: Swiss Train derailment [23.07.10]

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What about the Oerlikon crash in 2003, then? Doesn't that count?
Not sure why it was not included, but here is the BBC link to that incident.

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One person has been killed and several injured in a collision between two trains in Zurich, Swiss police have said.

Rescue services with ambulances and helicopters went to the scene of the crash, which took place during rush hour at Oerlikon station, an important junction in the city suburbs.



One train was on its way into the city from Schaffhausen in northern Switzerland.



The other was travelling from Zurich to Constance, which is just across the border in Germany.

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  #25  
Old 27.07.2010, 23:35
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Re: Swiss Train derailment [23.07.10]

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Horrifying that this can happen in Switzerland...
Why not ? Mistakes and accidents happen in Switzerland just as elsewhere, and Switzerland per capita has an extreme number of both trains and railways passengers.
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  #26  
Old 28.07.2010, 00:46
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Re: Swiss Train derailment [23.07.10]

It looks like it has hapend because of the huge heat difference and the extension of the rails. For example on the Rigi they sprinkle rails with water to cool them down (at some exposed places).
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  #27  
Old 30.07.2010, 16:22
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Re: Swiss Train derailment [23.07.10]

The official verdict: Human error (too much speed).
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  #28  
Old 30.07.2010, 17:00
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Re: Swiss Train derailment [23.07.10]

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The official verdict: Human error (too much speed).
I wonder now what will happen to this human?
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Old 30.07.2010, 17:12
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Re: Swiss Train derailment [23.07.10]

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I wonder now what will happen to this human?
"The incident will be reviewed by an investigating magistrate in the coming weeks." (Swissinfo)
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Old 30.07.2010, 17:44
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Re: Swiss Train derailment [23.07.10]

A Japan tabloid quotes the driver as saying that the tracks were distorted.

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However, investigators said inspections of the accident site could not determine whether distortion in the track was present before the accident or was caused by it.

Japan Times

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Matterhorn Gotthard Bahn, operator of the rail service, plans to offer condolences to the relatives of the Japanese woman who died. At a news conference Saturday, Hans-Rudolf Mooser, president of the company, said the victims would be compensated.
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  #31  
Old 30.07.2010, 17:58
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Re: Swiss Train derailment [23.07.10]

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What about the Oerlikon crash in 2003, then? Doesn't that count?
yup, i also wonder why it was not included? swissinfo.ch was always biased but to not give obvious facts is a little too much

also this article: http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_ne...l?cid=18869354

so... 'cultural differences' are the reason why Japanese are not happy that the train is already back on track...

IMHO this cultural difference is that one side is intrested only in $$$$ in this case. they should really wait and investigate futher especially if it is not clear if human error OR track defect is the reason for this accident. (or at least they were not sure at the time when the train went back to bussiness as usual)

i will probably be groaned at by 'DON'T YOU DARE TO SAY BAD THING ABOUT CH' talibans, but oh well...
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  #32  
Old 31.07.2010, 01:54
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Re: Swiss Train derailment [23.07.10]

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IMHO this cultural difference is that one side is intrested only in $$$$ in this case. they should really wait and investigate futher especially if it is not clear if human error OR track defect is the reason for this accident. (or at least they were not sure at the time when the train went back to bussiness as usual)
Repeat after me: "P h y s i c s"

If the train driver blames track distortion, I don't know what he hopes to achieve since, if he did detect any distortion, his subsequent exceeding of the speed limit is even more negligent. It must be well known that exceeding the speed limit in that kurve is dangeroues, narrow gauge, tight turn, etc., otherwise they wouldn't have instituted it in the first case.

Facts are, the black box clearly states what the speed of the train at time of the crash was.

Subsequent tests confirmed that the variation of the black box from the true speed is 1 km/h, i.e. for all practical purposes irrelevant.

With the known speed, weight, height, angle of turn etc. it is easily modelled whether the centrifugal forces are enough for a derailment. If they are, any possible track distortion would be irrelevant to the accident.

If not, then further measures would have been introduced, f.e. a further lowering of the speed limit, a limit to the train length etc.. However, none of this seems to be the case.

If all the relevant facts of the accident are known, what's more to investigate?
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  #33  
Old 31.07.2010, 03:40
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Re: Swiss Train derailment [23.07.10]

Alright, so they say he accelerated 20-30 meters too early.

That's about the lenght of one carriage.

It is questionable if that was enough to get the rear three (!) coaches to derail.

I feel not only with the people that have been harmed in that unnecessary accident but also with my coworker who must feel miserable.
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  #34  
Old 31.07.2010, 06:15
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Re: Swiss Train derailment [23.07.10]

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Alright, so they say he accelerated 20-30 meters too early.

That's about the lenght of one carriage.

It is questionable if that was enough to get the rear three (!) coaches to derail.

The driver didn't accelerate 20-30 meters too early, he accelerated 30 meters before the "55km/h" sign. However he was supposed to accelerate only after the last carriage passed this sign.

That means he accelerated well over a hundred meters before he was supposed to.

The train was travelling at 56km/h when the maximum speed allowed was only 35km/h.

Now we could talk about pressures and timetables but as to the direct cause of the accident things seem to be very clear.

Last edited by Andreas Stofer; 31.07.2010 at 06:57.
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  #35  
Old 02.08.2010, 11:51
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Re: Swiss Train derailment [23.07.10]

There is another service interruption today 2nd August 2010.

Take note!

Overhead line malfunction: Sissach (SBB CFF FFS)

Overhead line malfunction: Between Gelterkinden and Olten on the Basel SBB - Olten line, train services have been suspended.

The Basel SBB - Zürich HB - Chur Intercity trains are being rerouted.

The total travelling time is extended by 5 minutes.
Trains ICN Basel SBB - Luzern - Lugano are cancelled between Basel SBB and Olten.

The IC 9xx / ICE Basel SBB - Bern - Interlaken Ost trains are being rerouted.
Please allow for approx. 10 minutes more travel time.

Trains IC 10xx Basel SBB - Bern - Interlaken Ost / Brig are cancelled.
Passengers from Olten are travelling on schedule.

Trains IR Basel SBB - Aarau - Zürich HB - Chur are cancelled between Basel SBB and Zürich HB.
Replacement trains operating Lenzburg - Zürich HB - Lenzburg.

Trains IR Basel SBB - Luzern / Locarno are cancelled between Basel SBB and Olten.

The IR Basel SBB - Zofingen / Luzern trains are being rerouted.
The IR Basel SBB - Zofingen / Luzern trains do not stop in Gelterkinden.
Please allow for approx. 10 minutes more travel time.

S-Bahn trains S3 Porrentruy / Laufen - Olten are cancelled between Gelterkinden and Olten.
Replacement buses operating Gelterkinden - Olten.
The bus/train connections are not guaranteed.
The total travelling time is extended by 40 minutes.

S-Bahn trains S9 Sissach - Läufelfingen - Olten are cancelled.
Replacement buses operating Sissach - Läufelfingen - Olten.

Passengers travelling from Olten to Trimbach or vice versa travel via BusLinie 2.

Passengers travelling from Basel SBB to Zürich HB or vice versa travel via IC Basel SBB - Chur + IR Basel SBB - Brugg AG - Zürich HB.
The total travelling time is extended by 10 minutes.

Passengers travelling from Basel SBB to Aarau / Lenzburg or vice versa travel via Brugg AG.
Please allow for approx. 30 minutes more travel time.

Passengers travelling from Basel SBB to Arth-Goldau - Bellinzona - Lugano - Milano Centrale or vice versa travel via Zürich HB.

Duration of disruption indefinite.
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Old 02.08.2010, 12:27
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Re: Swiss Train derailment [23.07.10]

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I would think it was unlikely it was track breakage.
The weight would have been on the engine at the front and the carriages dragged. I would assume a fault with carriage.
Not necessarily. Sometimes a weakened track can break due to the passing of a locomotive and train, with each passing axle damaging the track a bit more until something gives. This would explain the rear three cars derailing.

There are even stories of incidents in the past in which a short section of track was missing for some reason but because the train was going in a straight line the locomotive rerailed and continued on the track, but the passage of successive coaches hitting the protruding end of the rail after the gap caused this track panel to shift so that the last coach in the train did derail.
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  #37  
Old 02.08.2010, 12:45
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Re: Swiss Train derailment [23.07.10]

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... they should really wait [to put the train/line back in service] and investigate futher especially if it is not clear if human error OR track defect is the reason for this accident. (or at least they were not sure at the time when the train went back to bussiness as usual)

i will probably be groaned at by 'DON'T YOU DARE TO SAY BAD THING ABOUT CH' talibans, but oh well...
Yes, and they should ground all aeroplanes every time there's an incident, and garage all cars after each road accident involving a certain make and model until the accident investigation is completed.

What a load of claptrap.
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  #38  
Old 02.08.2010, 23:23
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Re: Swiss Train derailment [23.07.10]

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Alright, so they say he accelerated 20-30 meters too early.

That's about the lenght of one carriage.

It is questionable if that was enough to get the rear three (!) coaches to derail.

I feel not only with the people that have been harmed in that unnecessary accident but also with my coworker who must feel miserable.
Thanks for your remarks. Reminds me of the reports in case of aviation accidents, where to blame the pilot is an easy was to cover up faulty things in the infrastructure

I still remember what I heard in January from a friend who is a train driver of SBB and bitterly complained about the maintenance of the rails of the SBB network ..............
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  #39  
Old 02.08.2010, 23:32
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Re: Swiss Train derailment [23.07.10]

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The driver didn't accelerate 20-30 meters too early, he accelerated 30 meters before the "55km/h" sign. However he was supposed to accelerate only after the last carriage passed this sign.

That means he accelerated well over a hundred meters before he was supposed to.

The train was travelling at 56km/h when the maximum speed allowed was only 35km/h.

Now we could talk about pressures and timetables but as to the direct cause of the accident things seem to be very clear.
By logic considerations, the 55km/h sign should be some 100 meters down the line, at a place where the train driver CAN immediately accelerate. And let's face the truth, a long stretch where speed is limited to 35 kmh is not what can be expected of this prestigious route and needs to be improved. That such improvements cost lots of money of course is undeniable, BUT the income for SBB from such touristic routes is highly important.

To emphasize the point even more, inbound tourism in Switzerland, just behind the export industry, is the national money earner number TWO !
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Old 03.08.2010, 00:25
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Re: Swiss Train derailment [23.07.10]

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And let's face the truth, a long stretch where speed is limited to 35 kmh is not what can be expected of this prestigious route and needs to be improved. That such improvements cost lots of money of course is undeniable, BUT the income for SBB from such touristic routes is highly important.
Let's keep this in perspective. I've travelled on trains in many countries of the world (I'm a bit of a buff) and Switzerland has some of the smoothest and best maintained tracks I've ever seen.

For your pleasure I leave you this:




and this is not some backwater or disused siding but the approach to Chicago Union station, on of the busiest rail hubs in North America and used by dozens of passenger trains every day.

And here is another just a bit further along the same line. I have difficulty making out what actually still holds this track together.

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