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  #41  
Old 25.10.2010, 21:05
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Re: SVP Poster

OK first let me say I am in NO WAY shape or form a supporter of the SVP. Nor do I like their Posters and to say I find their message disturbing is an understatement BUT you have to give credit where its due. Time and again they manage to cause such a hallabaloo and generate so much publicity that their Political Opinion receives more air-time than IMHO it deserves. So, who ever does their Ad-Campaigns is incredibly clever...

Now back to the actual posters. As I understand it they are relating to the next vote which is called the "Ausschaffungsinitiative" which (though I've not read it in detail) is supposed to change to law so that foreigners (even those born here) are kicked out of Switzerland when they commit a crime.

Someone mentioned that this is a breach of international law (Völkerrecht). This is heavily debated and really depends exactly on the wording but there is a difference between someone who has been granted political asylum and someone who has not with regards to whether or not they get kicked out if they commit a crime. IF they have asylum then no they can't be kicked out.. (well actually they can but it would be a breach of the European Human Rights Agreement which Switzerland is a party to).

As the Minarrett-Ban (spelling.. sorry I suck at it but no offence intended) showed, it is very much the "oh they'll never be taken seriously, lets just ignore the SVP" approach of the Bundesrat (Federal Assembly) which landed us with the result that it was accepted. In other words, had they actually, as is their duty, taken the fact that 60'000 signatures had been collected on this matter seriously and worked out a sensible alternative for people to vote for instead of the SVP Tripe I am sure the majority would not have voted for the ban.

So yes, apathy is bad BUT like bullies, don't rise to SVP Hate Campaign, rather find alternative solutions and take some fuel out of their fire.
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  #42  
Old 25.10.2010, 21:50
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Re: SVP Poster

In Canada, if you commit a criminal offence as a landed immigrant (resident but not a citizen), the govt can deport you to the country you arrived from or your country of origin. Very recently, it was invoked for the first time to recommend deportation for a young adult who had killed a kid while joy racing. People thought it was unfair as the offender had grown up in Canada since a little boy and had no connection to this country of origin. He was not deported, and it was only our current right-wing govt that originally suggested it to look tough on crime.

I mention this to say that most countries have such powers on the books. And secondly it highlights the issue that even if not born in one's country of residence, one could have full links to that country and not another. It's more pertininent in CH, where even if born here, you are not necessarily a citizen.

It seems to me that once you give someone a C permit, then they are a full resident and should be treated as such, with no threats of deportation. The onus is on the govt to to do due dillegence before awarding permanent residence. After that, no falling back on the immigrant or foreigner label.
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  #43  
Old 25.10.2010, 21:54
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Re: SVP Poster / "Ivan the rapist should not be allowed Swiss citizenship"

Criminal deportation for residents ( ie non-citizens ) has been possible and exercised in Australia under Sec. 200 of the Migration Act, 1958.

http://www.immi.gov.au/media/letters...ldsun_1212.htm

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Letter to the Editor - Melbourne Herald Sun
12 December 2003


Dear Sir/Madam
I refer to Mary Coburn's letter of 12 December regarding deportation of non-citizens convicted of serious criminal offences.
I would like to assure Ms Coburn that all non-citizens who commit a serious criminal offence can have their visa cancelled and may be removed from Australia. The High Court decision clarifies that this also includes British subjects who arrived in Australia since 1949 if they have not taken out Australian citizenship.
The Australian Government expects non-citizens who are granted a visa to come to Australia to obey Australian laws.
Stewart Foster
Director
Public Affairs
DIMIA

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  #44  
Old 25.10.2010, 21:57
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Re: SVP Poster / "Ivan the rapist should not be allowed Swiss citizenship"

As for the SVP, I don't think this issue is so radical. However, their demonisation of a certain group of people betrays their underlying bigotry. They are well organised. They pick very specific issues, portay it a certain way, and then design very good posters with very specific wording. The ignorant (not intended in a negative way) and those unaccustomed to foreigners or Swiss of different extract are easily vulnerable to this sort of talk. We have seen it in the past and we see it elsewhere in the world.

It's time for people in CH to respond if they disagree, as the argument is very one-sided in terms of public propaganda.
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  #45  
Old 25.10.2010, 22:00
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Re: SVP Poster

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It was a random and unfortunately, common name picked out by SVP's unimaginative graphic artists and designers.


You are very naive indeed...
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  #46  
Old 25.10.2010, 22:03
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Re: SVP Poster / "Ivan the rapist should not be allowed Swiss citizenship"

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What I want to know is, would the people behind the posters voice the same opinion in a room full of Slavs? Therein lies the rub
Oh yes they would. They'd claim the example is a real case - their lawyers are pricier than their PR advisors and would have certainly made sure their example is water tight - and then reject any claim that the campaign is racist. Cue whiney 'liberals' counter arguing, cue articles in 20Minuten... cue political agenda.

It's very easy to destruct but not so attractive to build. Uncurious minds need not apply...

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...So yes, apathy is bad BUT like bullies, don't rise to SVP Hate Campaign, rather find alternative solutions and take some fuel out of their fire.
So you think it's ok to promote Balkan Rapists' citizenship applications? You know what they're like: recidivists all of them. And their reckless driving etc etc... think of the children... etc etc. This will be their counter counter-argument. Good luck debating it in the local Stube.

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  #47  
Old 25.10.2010, 22:10
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Re: SVP Poster

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You are very naive indeed...
As usual, pick on one sentence and form an opinion. Dont bother reading the rest of my subsequent posts.
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Old 25.10.2010, 22:16
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Re: SVP Poster / "Ivan the rapist should not be allowed Swiss citizenship"

A few weeks ago, there was a story in the local paper about a foreigner with 40 criminal convictions entering Switzerland and residing here. Apparently, with Shengen, there are no reliable mechanisms for preventing this. The person, whether real or contrived, must be the Ivan S. in the poster. It seems there is a public dialog that go on in mundart all around us that most us are unaware of. I certainly don't listen in, as the sound of the language kinda makes me doze off (but I digress).

Anyways, while I don't like the SVP, the idea of sending away criminals makes perfect sense to me. Great idea. It makes better sense than building more prisons. I think I would vote for this initiative, though a problem may be that it will not likely be implementable. But then, I tend to vote for anything that benefits selfish old me. So, yeah, I'm all for kicking criminals out of Switzerland.
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  #49  
Old 25.10.2010, 22:22
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Re: SVP Poster / "Ivan the rapist should not be allowed Swiss citizenship"

40 convictions ? Sounds like a colossal failure of the SIS
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  #50  
Old 25.10.2010, 22:25
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Re: SVP Poster / "Ivan the rapist should not be allowed Swiss citizenship"

The main question is, will they kick out the tax evaders, drug and arm lords who reside in Switzerland and laundering billions in Swiss banks??, if so i'll be the first to vote for this initiative on one condition, that it applies on those people first.
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  #51  
Old 25.10.2010, 22:29
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Re: SVP Poster / "Ivan the rapist should not be allowed Swiss citizenship"

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Anyways, while I don't like the SVP, the idea of sending away criminals makes perfect sense to me. Great idea. It makes better sense than building more prisons. I think I would vote for this initiative, though a problem may be that it will not likely be implementable. But then, I tend to vote for anything that benefits selfish old me. So, yeah, I'm all for kicking criminals out of Switzerland.
How does placing the collective blame on foreigners/outsiders benefit you? That poster's underlying message isn't about deporting real criminals, its just about finding someone to blame. Someone different, someone identifiable by an invisible label, someone with fewer legal rights, someone in a weaker position. Someone like many people on this forum.
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  #52  
Old 25.10.2010, 22:29
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Re: SVP Poster / "Ivan the rapist should not be allowed Swiss citizenship"

I personally think that what initiative that poster promotes and how it goes about it are two separate things. You may well want to support the initiative, but why the way the campaign is executed has to stigmatize people who have nothing to do with what the initiative is against? That's where I see the danger. I think in the long span it is not about the initiative, that just serves as a motor for seeding certain sentiments, it prepares the ground...That other govs already have similar laws most people here know. In fact, Canada granted temporary visa to immigrants from my country for one year since they were pleading racism, and then after a year kicked them out saying they were nothing more than just economical refugees so have no right to stay in Canada, without the gov having to justify anything else, nor try to see if they have a clean criminal record or not. Other govs did not go about it using some hate inducing nationalistic and xenophobic dirt, though, that would complicate lives of nice folks. In fact, I think the actual aim of the campaign seems not so very important, rather just a reason to have more of those alarmist posters visible.

This is all very interesting. UCD is going against teachers these days in our regions, having part time jobs, subbing, etc. I wonder what posters I am going to see on my way to work.
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  #53  
Old 25.10.2010, 22:36
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Re: SVP Poster / "Ivan the rapist should not be allowed Swiss citizenship"

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How does placing the collective blame on foreigners/outsiders benefit you? That poster's underlying message isn't about deporting real criminals, its just about finding someone to blame. Someone different, someone identifiable by an invisible label, someone with fewer legal rights, someone in a weaker position. Someone like many people on this forum.
& that's the point here, this is not to protect Switzerland neither to keep it peaceful and perfect, if this initiative got approved, this means that people would get deported for minor issues as it doesn't define what level of criminality is it based on (could even be multiple traffic tickets!!), they will have control on foreigners like never before.

i think this is far from being democracy or freedom of speech, as it definitely restricts others freedom to live and creates huge gaps in the society
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  #54  
Old 25.10.2010, 22:41
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Re: SVP Poster

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I like the stereotypical white vest, moustache and gold chain - "How to recognise a rapist".

Groan!!
Funny thing is that's how a lot of the Swiss lads dress in the summer!

My daughter actually tore one down and ripped it up!!! Direct action from a 13 year old
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  #55  
Old 25.10.2010, 22:52
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Re: SVP Poster / "Ivan the rapist should not be allowed Swiss citizenship"

Well I do admire her - there are 100s posted all over the place here - in an area where they (of course) have very few foreigners - and I have not ahd the courage to take any down. Good girl.
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Old 25.10.2010, 22:55
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Re: SVP Poster

I am wonder if you would get better result with this friendly face,I think not.Would you have him deported ?
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Old 25.10.2010, 22:56
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Re: SVP Poster / "Ivan the rapist should not be allowed Swiss citizenship"

talking of defaced posters, there's a poster advertising some African fruit importer (I think I didn't pay too much attention to the ad itself) near where I live. It features a lady in I think African dress proudly displaying her produce. Someone has defaced her. Sickens me to see that.


Back on topic, here are the other ones from their site in case anyone is wondering.
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svp-poster-ivan-rapist-should-not-allowed-swiss-citizenship-detlef.jpg   svp-poster-ivan-rapist-should-not-allowed-swiss-citizenship-faruk.jpg   svp-poster-ivan-rapist-should-not-allowed-swiss-citizenship-ismir.jpg   svp-poster-ivan-rapist-should-not-allowed-swiss-citizenship-ivan.jpg  

Last edited by cheesey; 25.10.2010 at 23:08. Reason: uploads
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  #58  
Old 25.10.2010, 23:11
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Re: SVP Poster / "Ivan the rapist should not be allowed Swiss citizenship"

the polls suggest that this initiative will be accepted
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Old 25.10.2010, 23:22
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Re: SVP Poster / "Ivan the rapist should not be allowed Swiss citizenship"

I find it odd how many pedophiles are actually Swiss, no offense but as old men say "don't stone other's houses when your house is made of glass"

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Old 25.10.2010, 23:35
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Re: SVP Poster

Granted it happened recently that one racer who killed someone in Vancouver was deported, (btw I agreed with that order) but it very rarely has ever enforced for the majority of immigrants who break the law and we as Canadians know that there are many who have been ordered deported but the government has completely lost track of who and where they are and are not able to execute the order.

The Swiss have a better system of keeping track of people.

I disagree with your stance on this issue. A person who immigrates to any country under any false pretenses and continues criminal activity should face the full force of any law to oust them. Look at Karl Schreiber...do you think he deserved to remain in Canada. Germany was forced to take him back and throw him in jail where he belongs.


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In Canada, if you commit a criminal offence as a landed immigrant (resident but not a citizen), the govt can deport you to the country you arrived from or your country of origin. Very recently, it was invoked for the first time to recommend deportation for a young adult who had killed a kid while joy racing. People thought it was unfair as the offender had grown up in Canada since a little boy and had no connection to this country of origin. He was not deported, and it was only our current right-wing govt that originally suggested it to look tough on crime.

I mention this to say that most countries have such powers on the books. And secondly it highlights the issue that even if not born in one's country of residence, one could have full links to that country and not another. It's more pertininent in CH, where even if born here, you are not necessarily a citizen.

It seems to me that once you give someone a C permit, then they are a full resident and should be treated as such, with no threats of deportation. The onus is on the govt to to do due dillegence before awarding permanent residence. After that, no falling back on the immigrant or foreigner label.
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