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  #21  
Old 12.07.2007, 14:35
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Re: How to inadvertently insult a Swiss?

Yes, but the difference being that England and the Premier League are renown for being a footballing institution, steeped in tradition and history.

I'm sorry, but the same cannot be said for the Swiss and offshore sailing - ask any Kiwi about this!
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  #22  
Old 12.07.2007, 15:19
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Re: How to inadvertently insult a Swiss?

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for the sake of being pedantic, which I know is one of your pet subjects ...
Hitler was Austrian ...
With a swiss bank account .... sorry couldn't resist that.
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  #23  
Old 12.07.2007, 15:23
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Re: How to inadvertently insult a Swiss?

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Yes, but the difference being that England and the Premier League are renown for being a footballing institution, steeped in tradition and history.

I'm sorry, but the same cannot be said for the Swiss and offshore sailing - ask any Kiwi about this!
Quite what the reputation of England and the Premiership has to do with the fact that Arsenal, Chelsea and an increasing number of clubs are being managed by foreigners and have team full of them, I don't know.

Incidentally, there is a good sailing tradition in Switzerland, there have been Whitbread race winners and the likes coming from here.
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  #24  
Old 12.07.2007, 15:23
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Re: How to inadvertently insult a Swiss?

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I'm sorry, but the same cannot be said for the Swiss and offshore sailing - ask any Kiwi about this!
Bernard Stamm and Dominique Wavre seem to have done rather well.
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  #25  
Old 12.07.2007, 15:52
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Re: How to inadvertently insult a Swiss?

The Whitbread.... or more recently the Volvo Ocean Race... now theres a race for Bertarelli to invest his money in!!! Better still he could enter the Vende Globe race and convince the world that he is a real sailor!!!

I still have to agree with Simon, Switzerland hardly has a huge Maritime heritage, if they have had a couple of successful sailors in the past it doesn't compare to a country like NewZealand which is brimming with sailing talent. How many Whitbread and Previous Americas cups have gone to NewZealand. Maybe thats why Switzerland feels that they have to Poach their sailors!!!

And as for the boat having to be of a particular nationality and the crew not... This is a recent rule change which Alinghi has exploited to its advantage. In terms of Match Racing in sailing the boat is only one element, the crew plays at least as big a (probably a bigger) role. The tactics, reading of wind shifts and weather, boat handling skills and the ability to cover the other boat are all HUGELY important factors... ...and all of these roles were performed by mainly Kiwis and Americans.

I won't comment on the English football situation because I don't know "jack" about it
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  #26  
Old 12.07.2007, 16:05
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Re: How to inadvertently insult a Swiss?

Despite living in Manchester, you conveniently forget to mention the greatest players in Utds History are probably Danish, French, Scottish, Northern Irish and Welsh

From your username though, seems you are a Wigan fan, just as well your best players of the past couple of years (Bullard aside!) have been Chimbonda and Camara (even as a Scot I am not going to go down the Lee McCulloch road ).

I'm sure this is a debate for another thread, but really, as 'The Great Man', Sir Arsene of Wenger says, "I don't look at a player's passport, just their potential". Who cares where anyone's from!

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Quite what the reputation of England and the Premiership has to do with the fact that Arsenal, Chelsea and an increasing number of clubs are being managed by foreigners and have team full of them, I don't know.

Incidentally, there is a good sailing tradition in Switzerland, there have been Whitbread race winners and the likes coming from here.
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  #27  
Old 12.07.2007, 16:17
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Re: How to inadvertently insult a Swiss?

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The Whitbread.... or more recently the Volvo Ocean Race... now theres a race for Bertarelli to invest his money in!!! Better still he could enter the Vende Globe race and convince the world that he is a real sailor!!!

I still have to agree with Simon, Switzerland hardly has a huge Maritime heritage, if they have had a couple of successful sailors in the past it doesn't compare to a country like NewZealand which is brimming with sailing talent. How many Whitbread and Previous Americas cups have gone to NewZealand. Maybe thats why Switzerland feels that they have to Poach their sailors!!!

And as for the boat having to be of a particular nationality and the crew not... This is a recent rule change which Alinghi has exploited to its advantage. In terms of Match Racing in sailing the boat is only one element, the crew plays at least as big a (probably a bigger) role. The tactics, reading of wind shifts and weather, boat handling skills and the ability to cover the other boat are all HUGELY important factors... ...and all of these roles were performed by mainly Kiwis and Americans.

I won't comment on the English football situation because I don't know "jack" about it
I shall concede that Kiwis are indeed great salors – shame about the boat !

As for Bertarelli exploiting an advantage he could have elected to hold the recent Americas Cup on Lake Geneva as there’s nothing to say that it has to be on the sea. This was discussed in the press after the first victory as, apparently, it would have been a big advantage to the Swiss as it seems that sailing the lake is very difficult owing to multiple changes of wind direction. (I’m just reporting what was said at the time).

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  #28  
Old 12.07.2007, 16:28
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Re: How to inadvertently insult a Swiss?

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As for Bertarelli exploiting an advantage he could have elected to hold the recent Americas Cup on Lake Geneva as there’s nothing to say that it has to be on the sea. This was discussed in the press after the first victory as, apparently, it would have been a big advantage to the Swiss as it seems that sailing the lake is very difficult owing to multiple changes of wind direction. (I’m just reporting what was said at the time).

I may be wrong on this and I don't have time to check it exactly right now...

But as far as I remember the Americas Cup does have to be held on the Sea, an enclosed bay will do, but it should have a connection to open water. A lake will not (Remember the first Americas Cup was actually a transatlantic race!!! The clippers of the day had to race across the Atlantic with their cargo of tea). Berterelli would have had to change the rules (and probably the boat design rules also!) to hold the event on lake Geneva, since they had won the cup this would have been within their prerogative, but they did choose a spot with no tide which could have potentially helped a Swiss team (or at least taken an advantage away from ocean sailors!)

You make a good point about the lakes, it is really difficult to sail well in those shifty conditions, but it makes the racing really tactical which can make for excellent match racing. Interestingly the days that were like that in this years Americas Cup racing was postponed or canceled!!!

Last edited by Eire; 12.07.2007 at 16:33. Reason: insert the word probably
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  #29  
Old 12.07.2007, 16:45
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Re: How to inadvertently insult a Swiss?

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I may be wrong on this and I don't have time to check it exactly right now...

But as far as I remember the Americas Cup does have to be held on the Sea, an enclosed bay will do, but it should have a connection to open water. A lake will not (Remember the first Americas Cup was actually a transatlantic race!!! The clippers of the day had to race across the Atlantic with their cargo of tea). Berterelli would have had to change the rules (and probably the boat design rules also!) to hold the event on lake Geneva, since they had won the cup this would have been within their prerogative, but they did choose a spot with no tide which could have potentially helped a Swiss team (or at least taken an advantage away from ocean sailors!)

You make a good point about the lakes, it is really difficult to sail well in those shifty conditions, but it makes the racing really tactical which can make for excellent match racing. Interestingly the days that were like that in this years Americas Cup racing was postponed or canceled!!!

what dissapointed me about Berterelli was his constant moaning regards the light winds ... and yes, they chose a Meditteranean venue precisely for the reason that it would give them an edge.

Americas Cup rules changed this year with regards to light winds :

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Under this year's America's Cup rules, racing cannot start unless the wind is steady between seven and 23 knots
Source : Eurosport
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  #30  
Old 12.07.2007, 20:10
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Re: How to inadvertently insult a Swiss?

So if sailing on the major Swiss lakes is quite technical and difficult, it's not too much to speculate that there is local expertise and one which can be translated to the sea. Blonaybear mentions a few chaps currently active and I remember Fehlman from Morges winning the Whitbread in the 80's and being a pretty good sailor at the time.
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